Doctor Who [10]

There is no grey on the Who thread except the Doctors hair.

But you do make a good point in that I have said where I think Rose is good in the past, she can be very compassionate, well towards the Doctor at least, she is certainly brave. Granted I struggle to think of many Rose era episodes where I like Rose in them, but i am sure there must be at least one or two out there. The first half of Dalek is good, um, Unquiet Dead, Fathers Day , I dont mind her in those.
And I have mentioned in the past these bits of Rose's character that I do like. Not sure I can say the same for Figg and Moffat era, struggling to think of a single positive thing she has ever said about anyone in it. Its all just abuse.

But the parts that are not likeable are so huge they blot all else out- her attitude to others, her selfishness, her clingyness to the Doctor, her treatment of many people, her dismissiveness of people, and worse of all the stupid love story- which is one of those parts of Who history, along with Delta and the Bannerman and Time Lash I will acknowledge happened but prefer it be swept away under the carpet and forgotten about its that bad and embarrassing an idea.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Exactly my point Figg- make your own arguments, not someone else, as I am not replying to someone who isn't even here.
Or I suppose I could (pointlessly) counter it with something like this-


and we could go on forever posting other peoples arguments against each other- but what what would be the point?- if you have points to make, make them, but do so in your own words and with your opinions, not other peoples.

To be fair Petty, you started this line of argument on the last page.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:most people don't think Rose is nasty and bitchy to everyone she meets- Figg

Not true, there are whole blogs dedicated to why Rose is selfish and self-centred as a gyroscope.
Heres a nice short oe with good points- http://jmusiclover24.livejournal.com/15364.html

Mrs Figg stated her opinion, and you replied with a blog link, which doesn't in any way address Mrs Figg's point about how she perceives most viewers see Rose. From the Who fans I know, there are a lot who like Rose as a character, at least at some level. It's hard to argue with that by posting one blog or a hundred blogs. There'll always be haters.

hence Moffat being uncomfortable with Nine being the War Doctor in DOTD- malick


Where did you hear that? It seems at odds with Moffat trying to get Eccelston on board for the 50th to play the War Doctor- Hurt was a last minute arrangement Moffat had as backup in case Eccleston backed out.
It was 8 Moffat said he couldnt picture as the War Doctor as it went against everything 8 inparticular stood for and was too out of character for him (which I'd agree with)- are you mixing the two up perhaps?

To be fair Petty, you started this line of argument on the last page.- David


No, I didnt. Figg accused me of being a lone voice essentially in disliking Rose- I linked to the blog not as proof of anything other than that was not the case- there are plenty folks out there who dislike her.
I made no use of their arguments, all my arguments made on here about anything are my own, not someone elses.
I am more than confident enough in my own arguments not to need the backup of a blog or vid, and I dont think any evidence is really relevant outside whats in the show itself.
A position I have stated many, many times.

'and you replied with a blog link, which doesn't in any way address Mrs Figg's point about how she perceives most viewers see Rose.'- Daviod

See above- I didnt. The blog was merely to highlight that there are plenty folks with this view contrary to Figgs claim about me, not in anyway at all to present their argument against Figg- I can repesent my own views thanks very much.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:hence Moffat being uncomfortable with Nine being the War Doctor in DOTD- malick


Where did you hear that? It seems at odds with Moffat trying to get Eccelston on board for the 50th to play the War Doctor- Hurt was a last minute arrangement Moffat had as backup in case Eccleston backed out.
It was 8 Moffat said he couldnt picture as the War Doctor as it went against everything 8 inparticular stood for and was too out of character for him (which I'd agree with)- are you mixing the two up perhaps?

No you misread me, what I meant (as you said) was he originally wrote DOTD with the intention of Eccleston being the War Doctor, I've read various conflicting rumours about how interested Eccleston was in returning (some say he had a couple of meetings, some say he dropped out at the last minute, or was tied down with re-shoots on Thor 2) but I can't really picture him in the story (at least in 'War's' role) the epeisode basically ends up reverting the underlying tragedy of his series so I

As for the 8th Doctor being the War Doctor I agree it's very hard to picture him ever getting that desperate (Though given how pissed off he is at the end of 'To The Death' it seems B.F were writing him in a darker direction at least) and I prefer to think of him as the wide eyed adventurer overjoyed with his perfectly fitting shoes than a blood soaked outcast...but you can't deny McGann deserves more screentime, it would make things even more tragic seeing how the least likely Doctor ended up committing genocide, and virtally everyone assumed 8 was repsonsible anyway until Moffat decided otherwise. Having a War Doctor whilst adding to the mystery of the conflict and symbolizing the wilderness years could arguably make things seem a little neat and absolves the Doctor of his guilt.

-Hell, the 8th Doctor already destroyed Gallifrey once and fought in a time war in the BBC Eighth Doctor Books (which may or may not be part of the same timeline as Big Finish's 8th Doctor stories), RTD originally intended to have the 8th Doctor regenerate in the comic book 'The Flood' also set at the end of the time war I think.

As it stands I think the War Doctor was he best solution possible, I'm just a little annoyed they didn't age McGann up a little in NOTD, and I can understand why others have issues with the idea.

Yeah that makes more sense to me now.

'I prefer to think of him as the wide eyed adventurer overjoyed with his perfectly fitting shoes than a blood soaked outcast'

So do I, and I think so too does Moffat. He is clearly an 8 fan, even namechecking his BF companions ect. And I do think it was the rigth call- he is he wrong Doctor for the role.

I would love to have seen more of 8, McCann makes an excellent Doctor, but on the other hand we should be grateful for what we did get- Moffat didnt have to do that and I bet with BBC budgets being tight and the 50th already being expensive it was not an easy thing to push for either, as its not strictly necessary and is just an extra bonus- its really one for the fans.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:To be fair Petty, you started this line of argument on the last page.- David


No, I didnt. Figg accused me of being a lone voice essentially in disliking Rose- I linked to the blog not as proof of anything other than that was not the case- there are plenty folks out there who dislike her.

No she didn't. Here's the complete text of her post you were responding to.

Mrs Figg wrote:most people don't think Rose is nasty and bitchy to everyone she meets, because that is demonstrably not true and absurd.

There's nothing about you being a lone voice there.  
She's simply expressing that there are other points of view.
Your blog post didnt address that.
So yes, I think you did start it, if that matters.

McGann was certainly stunning in Night of the Doctor. I still find myself thinking, when contemplating all the new series Doctors, "Why can't I have that one?"

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Yeah that makes more sense to me now.

Moffat didnt have to do that

No quite right, It was quite a nice surpise! (For McGann too, apparently he only got the call a couple of days before)

I don't see why they can't bring McGann back for a random 2 or 3 parter, not all multi-doctor stories have to be 'epics'.

Have you read any of the 8th Doctor books? I'm considering whether to read them...

most people don't think Rose is nasty and bitchy- Figg via Davids post

Taken on top of her previous comments to me on the matter 'most people' implies a consenus on Rose being a good companion- when no such consenus exists (there are no consensus in Who fandom on anything for that matter, its what makes it such a ,um, lively, show to debate) my reply was merely to point that fact out- not to use anything in the blog as my own argument. I never do that.


'I don't see why they can't bring McGann back for a random 2 or 3 parter, not all multi-doctor stories have to be 'epics'.'- Malick

Could happen yet- fingers crossed, Moffat has laid the groundwork by bringing him back in and making BF part of the canon.

'Have you read any of the 8th Doctor books? I'm considering whether to read them...'

No I'm afraid not, so I cant comment on if they are any good or not- but if you do give some a read let us know what you think of them

Bluebottle wrote:McGann was certainly stunning in Night of the Doctor. I still find myself thinking, when contemplating all the new series Doctors, "Why can't I have that one?"

That dialogue could be written for any doctor, but McGann certainly gives it a spin of it's own.

He actually signed a six season contract with Fox so If the TV film had been more sucessful he would have probably ended up with more than twice the TV stories of Tom Baker...

Check out some of His Big Finish stories, whilst the writing isn't always great (you can't really blame them though, he had a hour's screentime half of that as a bewildered amnesiac) McGann is excellent, and when the writing is on form, some of his stories rival the best of the TV series.

I've only listened to about half so far, but my faves The Stones of Venice, The Chimes of Midnight, Scherzo, Zagreus (you won't hear that very often!) Horror of Glam Rock, An Earthly Child, The Silver Turk and Lucy Miller/To The Death

That dialogue could be written for any doctor- Malick

To a point, there are certainly though 8 idiosyncrasies in there too however- for example 9 and 10 certainly would have said after listing this companions "I'm sorry," the fuller more formal "I apologise" is all 8.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Taken on top of her previous comments to me on the matter 'most people' implies a consenus on Rose being a good companion-

No, you inferring an implied consensus does not imply she was intending to imply a consensus.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:That dialogue could be written for any doctor- Malick

To a point, there are certainly though 8 idiosyncrasies in there too however- for example 9 and 10 certainly would have said after listing this companions "I'm sorry," the fuller more formal "I apologise" is all 8.

True, I was pleasantly surprised watching the TV film to see a clear evolution in his performance.

The Ninth Doctor would probably grimace and rage...I think Ten would break down in tears

I've always seen the 8th Doctor as a mixture of the Classic Doctors at their most purest, Edwardian, mysterious with a biting wit and a childlike sense of wonderment, a gentleman to the core, but a madman all the same.

Almost right up to his death he was still the Doctor 'The front of the ship crashes first think things through!', it makes it more tragic to see him finally snap and give up at the very last minute essentially committing suicide by becoming everything he despised.

Actually...I suppose he did commit suicide it dosen't look like he went rushing back into the tardis when the ship went down...

No, you inferring an implied consensus does not imply she was intending to imply a consensus.- David

I think its safe to not take that one statement in isolation, but as one in a long line of such attempts by Figg to paint my views on Rose as unique to me and not shared by anyone else and therefore obviously wrong.


I think Ten would break down in tears- Malick



I suppose he did commit suicide it dosen't look like he went rushing back into the tardis when the ship went down...- Malick

An interesting point- of course we dont really see how much time he has between the interior and exterior shots of the ship, nor do we know if he spent the last few seconds trying to persuade her not to give her life up (which I think is what 8 would be doing most likely) but it is possible her assessment of the situation, and the starkness of her attitude that no one can tell the difference between Time Lord and Dalek anymore might also have been enough to tip him over the edge. But from his dialogue afterwards I am not too inclined to that reading of it.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: But from his dialogue afterwards I am not too inclined to that reading of it.

Yeah, it probably doesn't work, just a random thought.

Though I remember someone on the BF forums suggested a bonkers theory The Sisterhood of Karn set up the crash and tricked him into committing suicide (yeah, this bloke hated The War Doctor stuff...), which is both utterly stupid and morbidly hilarious...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

I think its safe to not take that one statement in isolation, but as one in a long line of such attempts by Figg to paint my views on Rose as unique to me and not shared by anyone else and therefore obviously wrong.

I don't think anything is safe when you're arguing with a red-head!

But that aside, but if you're taking the long view, both of you have taken extreme positions from time to time over the years. If that context alone is enough to justify bringing in blog and video reinforcements, then both you and Figgs should have an equal right I'm thinking.

And again, you started it!

when you're arguing with a red-head- David

In this case we are both red-heads.

And I deny utterly 'starting it'- the blog was not to present an argument, just to illustrate that my view was not an isolated one in response to Figg's implied post that it was.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

In this case we are both red-heads.

I know! My point exactly!

malickfan wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:McGann was certainly stunning in Night of the Doctor. I still find myself thinking, when contemplating all the new series Doctors, "Why can't I have that one?"

Well, I'm thankful that we at least got the 10 minutes of him we got. It's a shame being cast in the movie pretty much precluded him from getting a proper go at the role. Not that I think a Fox series would have been any good, but he would have been perfect for the new series. Maybe I'll listen to some of his BF stuff, at least he got to have a proper go at the character there.

There is some really good 8 stuff in BF as Malick has said (the list of episodes Malick recommended I would second), and he certainly got a good go at it, if you count BF episodes same as tv ones he has had more episodes than any other Doctor ironically enough.

I remember someone on the BF forums suggested a bonkers theory The Sisterhood of Karn set up the crash and tricked him into committing suicide- Malick

Ive been thinking about this and there is a possibility here, though not I think exactly what the person was implying.

I don't for a moment think the Sisterhood set up the crash, but they have always had their own agenda.
Where they could have tricked him is in telling him that he is dead already and they have temporarily brought him back long enough to regenerate, if he chooses to.
The Sisterhood have a self preservation interest here, given their position with the Time Lords, and the elixir he takes to regenerate is one she prepared personally for him with the exclusive aim of making him a Warrior capable of doing what was necessary.
So perhaps the trick was in setting him up to choose to regenerate, when he didn't actually have to.
There is certainly gap enough there to insert that possibility in what we see.

It's odd, after seeing NotD I think I would have prefered the first season of nuwho with McGann.

Not sure he would have worked all that well with Rose though.

he wouldn't.

Not sure he would have worked all that well with Rose though- Blue