Doctor Who [10]

I'm serious you seem to suffer from a bad case of double standards or selective memory where Who is concerned.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I'm serious you seem to suffer from a bad case of double standards or selective memory where Who is concerned.

Pot. Kettle.

Care to give some examples Amarie to justify that claim?

I dont like RTD era Who for the most part, I make no bones about that, its Who-lite, but I have never been contradictory on that. On the few occasions I think RTD gets it right I am more than happy to sing his praises- Midnight for example- an episode I have recommended numerous times written by RTD. One of my all time favourites.

Figg on the otherhand continually pulls Moffat up for stuff RTD did all the time, but only finds a problem when its Moffat doing it (or Moffat doing anything at all in fact).

I give you this whole thread and all it's 10 splits. If you ever tried to read this with a little bit of detachment and not like a parishioner nodding and singing hallelujah to the gospel of Moffat, you would see this too.

Figg on the otherhand continually pulls Moffat up for stuff RTD did all the time, but only finds a problem when its Moffat doing it (or Moffat doing anything at all in fact). wrote:

Honestly, Petty. You are just the same, only it's RTD being the wrong-doer. Amy is feisty and Scottish. Rose is bitchy.

Amy is feisty and Scottish. Rose is bitchy.- Amarie

That's because those genuinely are not the same thing and only someone seeking to be contrary for the sake of it would think they were.
Amy is not horrible, mean, miserable and nasty to everyone else she meets or anyone who happens to says hello to the Doctor. Rose is.
There is a world of difference between strength of personality and just being unpleasant to people. Rose is either unpleasant to people or utterly dismissive of them.

That is not the same as accusing RTD of something I am praising Moffaat for.
RTD wrote a character with unpleasant personality traits- how she treats others.
Amy you can like or loath, but she doesn't go about treating everyone else like shite either way.
There is no double standard there.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Amy is feisty and Scottish. Rose is bitchy.- Amarie

That's because those genuinely are not the same thing and only someone seeking to be contrary for the sake of it would think they were.

There's clearly a distinction that you make, but I see it as something that should be discussed in shades of grey.

"Shades of grey": now there's a subject for robust debate!

I think the personalities of the characters as they are written are far more clear cut than that David.

For example River's first appearance in Moffat Who versus Sarah Janes reappearance in RTD era is a good example.

With River we have someone the Doctor has known from the past the companion does not know.
The person is older, female, and obviously has a past personal releationship with the Doctor of some kind.
Amy reacts with curiosity, amusement, and is impressed by how River carries and conducts herself.

Now lets look at Sarah Jane's reappearnence.
With Sarah we have someone the Doctor has known from the past the companion does not know.
The person is older, female, and obviously has a past personal releationship with the Doctor of some kind.
Rose responds with jealousy, meanness of spirit, and by being a bitch to her about her age and making a string of snide comments.

Its not a matter of opinion its a matter of what is in the episodes.

You always leave out the fact that Rose and Sarah Jane become great friends, laughing and having a great time together.

No, I am not forgetting that at all. That she finally manages by episode end to get over herself and her own bitchiness does not negate the fact that that is how she most commonly reacts to others and that it how she instantly reacted here- and she doesnt learn from it, she keeps acting that way in the future.
She is incredibly dismissive of people- what about the 'boyriend' she picks up in Dalek and then just dumps at the start of the next episode with this bit of dismissive interaction when he has a hard time dealing with the circumstances-

Doctor- He's your boyfriend.
Rose- Not any more he isn't.

That's her personality. She doesn't want anyone but her close to the Doctor and she acts appallingly to anyone else who she sees a having the potential to get in her way.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I'm serious you seem to suffer from a bad case of double standards or selective memory where Who is concerned.

well if there is a joke in Fear Her it certainly passed me by, or maybe it was funny. not being a prude I probably wasn't shocked at a mild adult joke. But the River 'Screamer' joke wasn't funny it was just cringeworthy and made her look pathetic and creepy. so yes I objected to that on grounds of bad taste and not being funny.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:No, I am not forgetting that at all. That she finally manages by episode end to get over herself and her own bitchiness does not negate the fact that that is how she most commonly reacts to others and that it how she instantly reacted here- and she doesnt learn from it, she keeps acting that way in the future.
She is incredibly dismissive of people- what about the 'boyriend' she picks up in Dalek and then just dumps at the start of the next episode with this bit of dismissive interaction when he has a hard time dealing with the circumstances-

Doctor- He's your boyfriend.
Rose- Not any more he isn't.

That's her personality. She doesn't want anyone but her close to the Doctor and she acts appallingly to anyone else who she sees a having the potential to get in her way.

most people don't think Rose is nasty and bitchy to everyone she meets, because that is demonstrably not true and absurd.

so yes I objected to that on grounds of bad taste and not being funny. - Figg

The joke in Fear Her is not in good taste- its when her face is on the slab and its jut a blatant oral sex joke- its cringworthy and so out of place, particularly in an episode where the monster is the prize wining entry from a childrens Blue Peter competition.

At least in Impossible Astronaut the tone throughout is darker and more adult and it doesn't jar the same way, not to mention if your a young kid it has a double meaning and kids wont get the sexual one, whereas jokes about people sitting on faces in a relationship is a bit harder to not see, even if a kid doesn't get the meaning itshard to shake the feeling that something else is being implied. Its not a double entrende, its a single entrende. And a fairly crude one at that.
And Rivers joke made me smile. The one in Fear Her made me shake my head with sadness.

most people don't think Rose is nasty and bitchy to everyone she meets- Figg

Not true, there are whole blogs dedicated to why Rose is selfish and self-centred as a gyroscope.
Heres a nice short oe with good points- http://jmusiclover24.livejournal.com/15364.html

From her treatment of Mickey, to how she treats her own mother, to how she treats Dalek boy, Sarah Jane, even Cassandra who she goes on a rant against for not being human enough-

ROSE: How many operations have you had?
CASSANDRA: Seven hundred and eight. Next week, it's seven hundred and nine. I'm having my blood bleached. Is that why you wanted a word? You could be flatter, Rose. You've got a little bit of a chin poking out.
ROSE: I'd rather die.
CASSANDRA: Honestly, it doesn't hurt.
ROSE: No, I mean it. I would rather die. It's better to die than live like you, a bitchy trampoline.
CASSANDRA: Oh, well. What do you know.
ROSE: I was born on that planet, and so was my mum, and so was my dad, and that makes me officially the last human being in this room, 'cos you're not human. You've had it all nipped and tucked and flattened till there's nothing left. Anything human got chucked in the bin. You're just skin, Cassandra. Lipstick and skin. Nice talking.


what the hell is that about? Since when has Doctor Who judged people on appearance or on whether or not someone has had cosmetic surgery?

I would be interested in finding out what kind of a person creates a blog just to hate Rose, its probably people with a problem with strong females who don't take any shit.

As for the darker tone, its just a fashion that is rapidly getting boring. The more anodyne and politically correct world we live in the more the marketing men turn kids story characters into darkness as a reaction. Moffat just jumped on the bandwagon, but making things darker doesn't add any real value or give any new messages, its just darker for the sake of it. The true dark tales come from folklore, where the sunny atmosphere hides evil. Moffat like all the others makes the darkness literal and sprinkles in a few glowering soundbites. silly really.

Well the blogs by a woman if that counts for anything. As is this one- https://lizzwritesgood.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/deconstructing-my-disdain-for-rose-tyler/

As to darker tone being 'jumping on a bandwagon' I dont think there is any evidence of that- Moffat favours stories with darker tones (you can trace that back through to his first tv show Press Gang which dealt with everything from a gas explosion and death to sexual abuse in the home)- the gasmask story in series 1 of Who is the darkest thing in series 1, Madame Pompadour has a dark ending, Silence in the Library has several dark moments- Moffat believes (rightly in my view) that one of the jobs of Who is to scare children in a good way. It sure scared the crap out of me as a kid, one of the reasons I am still such a fan are those memories. Moffat is creating memories for a new generation of fans by scaring them half to death.

Also Moffat with his background in sitcom has more jokes and more humour per eiosde than RTD, his episodes are full of one liners and humourous moments.

well if that's your example of a person hating Rose good luck with that! she seems to be more concerned about Rose having dyed blonde hair and the rest of it is incoherent ranting.

RTD said:

“Let's be blunt — every time I brought her back, the ratings went up."

https://mommyisageek.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/rose-tyler-defender-of-earth-and-why-i-quite-adore-her-fandom-tribute/

http://rynne.dreamwidth.org/284111.html

http://fauxkaren.livejournal.com/215412.html

http://whatculture.com/tv/doctor-who-9-reasons-why-rose-doesnt-deserve-any-of-the-hate.php

she seems to be more concerned about Rose having dyed blonde hair and the rest of it is incoherent ranting.- Figg

I made no comment about the content- I am merely pointing out that there are a ton of blogs, vids, posts and otherwise out there about how much some people dislike Rose- in counterance to your claim that only I have an issue with her.
I have said before iI repeat now, there is no point in posting other peoples blogs in defence of your position- it proves nothing at all, this is the internet- for every blog in favour there is a blog against, for every top companion list with Rose at the top there is a list where she isnt- it could just go forever posting counterblogs- I only put the link up as proof such blogs exist and are not hard to find, not as proof of any of my arguments- I make those myself and I stand by them myself. I dont need a blogger to back me up on it.


RTD said:

“Let's be blunt — every time I brought her back, the ratings went up."

And yet the longer NUWho goes on , and the more other companions people have to compare her to the less favourable and less popular she becomes.
Also from the tone of that statement it sounds like he was having to defend her against criticism and the fact she kept coming back even after she had left the show twice and was annoying a lot of people.

Exactly my point Figg- make your own arguments, not someone else, as I am not replying to someone who isn't even here.
Or I suppose I could (pointlessly) counter it with something like this-



and we could go on forever posting other peoples arguments against each other- but what what would be the point?- if you have points to make, make them, but do so in your own words and with your opinions, not other peoples.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think the personalities of the characters as they are written are far more clear cut than that David.

And from what I've seen, I think they're written far less clear-cut than you're saying, Petty. There are times when both Rose and Amy have charmed me, and times when both have annoyed me.  I don't see the point of trying to decide which I like best or which I hate most.  This is a TV show, not a high school popularity contest.

But I do think trying to present one as black and the other as white is just ridiculous.  It's grey I tell you!

Thought this was interesting, in a recent issue of DWM Rusell Davies talked about the bit in Rose where Eccleston looks in the mirror and comments on his features, it had been assumed this was implying he had just regenerated (hence Moffat being uncomfortable with Nine being the War Doctor in DOTD, and photos of Eccleston in McGann's costume) but I always thought it was kinda weird the Doctor was so confident and energetic if this was straight after the time war:

"Well, I hate being prescriptive here, cos sometimes, when I give an opinion on a scene, because I'm the writer and producer, it can become a fact. When I much prefer that if you make your own mind up. But enough time has passed now so, for the record... No, I do not think he'd just regenerated. If you have certain physical features like big ears, or buck teeth, you look at them and sigh at them every time you look in the mirror. And I think, if you'd had eight different faces, even if you'd been in this current form for a hundred years, you'd still mutter at them. So it was meant as a nod to the fact that he'd once had other faces. But I wrote the Titanic stuff and Krakatoa assuming that the Ninth Doctor had been around for a while. He doesn't act very post-regeneration, does he? He appears in command, waving a bomb. This is a man who knows himself, and has known himself for quite a while".

David H wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think the personalities of the characters as they are written are far more clear cut than that David.

 It's grey I tell you!

Let's not start that again