Re: Doctor Who [10]

by **Amarië** Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:27 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:He might be trying to reinvent everything again. - Moffat

Finally a quote I can agree with! Nod

by **Amarië** Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:41 pm

malickfan wrote:Well from the looks of things we may be getting 4 two parters next year, certainly a change to the format.

Spot on, thats exactly my reading of it too

Although I do understand some of Amarië's critisms, the 12th Doctor is easily the most fascinating one I've yet watched, the ideas and potential are certainly there, it is perhaps the execution(or budget...I recently read that RTD only had an average of £30,000 to spend on an episode-and this was back in 2007, explains some of the filler in the show If true...) that is lacking.

I agree, there is potential and it probably annoys me that I don't see it come to life. I always feel something is lacking.

by malickfan Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:53 pm

Amarië wrote:

I agree, there is potential and it probably annoys me that I don't see it come to life. I always feel something is lacking.

Fair enough (in a show about the unlimited possibilities of time and space it's always going to feel a little lacking when we are largely confined to Cardiff, quarries or dimly lit corridors...) I think the issue (whether good or bad) with Capaldi in Season 8 was a) he was written as a generic doctor for most of the season (I remember reading about half the scripts were originally written with Smith in mind) and with Clara and Moffat as holdovers, he had alot of baggage to deal with in finding his feet b) unlike 9, 10 or 11 who arrived more or less fully formed, Capaldi's Doctor came across as erratic and kinda lost to me (the writing was rather messy in terms of character beats in series 8 imo), I think they were deliberately playing with the idea of the Doctor being rebooted and struggling to find his feet (he is not the same man in Into The Dalek as he is in Death in Heaven for instance), tying in with my above comments about the veil being lifted, that was a risky move in having the Doctor gradually finding his feet at the same pace as the audience is discovering him, with an 55 year old known for darker roles in the lead part it's a very different beast to what New Whovians are accustomed to, having Clara as a part time companion dosen't help imo...how is the audience supposed to feel totally invested if the audience surrogate is partially absent?

by Mrs Figg Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:57 pm

Lets hope next season gets back to good storytelling, they seem to have understood that underhand sexism was turning people off, and that Clara should be a real character not a cardboard cut out. Last season was full of boring silly clunkers, I am hoping for more Flatline type creativity at least getting us part way to the golden age of RTD.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:59 pm

the writing was rather messy in terms of character beats in series 8 imo- Malick

That I dont agree with- I think it was very well planned out- each episode fills in a blank for the Doctor- first he questions himself, and then in each episode a part of his personality is reafffirmed- in Dalek he has to confront his own inner demons- in Robots he has to confront the notion he is some kind of hero ect- each episode adds a new element of his personality into the character as he himself rediscovers who he truly is now.

I agree it was a risky and brave approach to take- but messy in terms of character beats?- no I think it was the opposite, a well planned risk.
I struggle to think of another series in the shows 50 years where all the themes built up in each episode are used with such purpose building to towards the finale.
And if a Who showrunner is not willing to mix it pup, take risks with the shows format and character development than they are int he wrong job- it doesn't survive by retreading the same formula.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:00 pm

'The golden age of RTD'- Figg

slap laugh

Yeah thats we want a return to emo angst, a Doctor protrayed as some sort of Messiah who falls in love with 20 year old humans and story solutions pulled out of someone's arse in the last five minutes of every episode- no thanks.

by malickfan Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:10 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Lets hope next season gets back to good storytelling, they seem to have understood that underhand sexism was turning people off, and that Clara should be a real character not a cardboard cut outShe had much more personality in Series 8 that 7...admittedly it could be a grating personality.... Last season was full of boring silly clunkersOther than Kill The Moon, Forest of Night I enjoyed every episode, for me it was the best since series 5, fourth favourite overall, I am hoping for more Flatline type creativity Well the writer of Flatine is coming backat least getting us part way to the golden age of RTDWhy would Moffat want to return to style of RTD? he left the show five years ago..

by malickfan Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:18 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:'The golden age of RTD'- Figg

Yeah thats we want a return to emo angst, a Doctor protrayed as some sort of Messiah What about Moffat turning 11 into a legendary Warrior whose name scares way enemieswho falls in love with 20 year old humans Always found the love stories...creepyand story solutions pulled out of someone's arse in the last five minutes of every episodeEr...what about the Doctor walking casually out of his own timeline, the Tardis being blown up off screen, psychic leafs etc? Moffat is just as guilty asd RTD imo- no thanks.

I'm on the fence here, whilst I prefer the scope/ideas/tone of Moffat's writing and love the way he writes the Doctor, RTD's tenure for me was more enjoyable-simple fun storylines not bogged down in complex plots the budget or run-time weren't up to, RTD made the show for casual viewers like me, it may not have been like the Classic Who you were used to, but it was very popular the the general audience, RTD may not have had groundbreaking ideas (and his low points were much lower than Moffat's imo) but he wrote easy to follow, fun stories full of wonder and down to earth characters.

by **Amarië** Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:24 pm

malickfan wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:'The golden age of RTD'- Figg

Yeah thats we want a return to emo angst, a Doctor protrayed as some sort of Messiah What about Moffat turning 11 into a legendary Warrior whose name scares way enemieswho falls in love with 20 year old humans Always found the love stories...creepyand story solutions pulled out of someone's arse in the last five minutes of every episodeEr...what about the Doctor walking casually out of his own timeline, the Tardis being blown up off screen, psychic leafs etc? Moffat is just as guilty asd RTD imo- no thanks.

I'm on the fence here, whilst I prefer the scope/ideas/tone of Moffat's writing and love the way he writes the Doctor, RTD's tenure for me was more enjoyable-simple fun storylines not bogged down in complex plots the budget or run-time weren't up to, RTD made the show for casual viewers like me, it may not have been like the Classic Who you were used to, but it was very popular the the general audience, RTD may not have had groundbreaking ideas (and his low points were much lower than Moffat's imo) but he wrote easy to follow, fun stories full of wonder and down to earth characters.

Hear, hear! pub

The golden age of RTD, when shit was really shit and the gems where dazzling.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:25 pm

What about Moffat turning 11 into a legendary Warrior whose name scares way enemies- Malick

He didnt RTD did that- Moffat reset it the whole purpose in Pandorica, Good Man Goes to War ect was to bring him back down a peg or two from Messiah status. But to that you first have to empahsis the problem before you knock it down (plus its how River describes him in Library, so we have to see it or its not consistent).

'Er...what about the Doctor walking casually out of his own timeline'

We arent given any reason to think he cant.

'the Tardis being blown up off screen'

Explained later as the Silence attempting to stop him reaching Trenzalore and creating the very cracks in time they were tying to prevent happening. You have to take 11's story in completion- and when you do that the answers are all given at their appropriate time and place. Moffats just makes you wait for them rather than tying it up all in a neat bow there and then.

'it was very popular the the general audience'

Its more popular now taken on a global scale- RTD ea Who could never have filled cinemas world wide for example.

by Mrs Figg Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:38 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:'The golden age of RTD'- Figg

Yeah thats we want a return to emo angst you mean like Clara and her emo soap opera love angst with Danny , a Doctor protrayed as some sort of Messiah who falls in love with 20 year old humans you mean 20 year old humans like Amy Pond and story solutions pulled out of someone's arse in the last five minutes of every episode you mean like 95% of Moffat and his plot holes the size of Alaska - no thanks.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:44 pm

you mean like Clara and her emo soap opera love angst with Danny- Figg

I dont think Clara is emo- but she is a companion- its the Doctor as a whiny emo kid thats hard to take and no fun to watch.

you mean 20 year old humans like Amy Pond

When did the Doctor fall in love with Amy? He rejects her outright when she tries and is horrified at the very idea, then sets about making sure she and Rory get together.

'you mean like 95% of Moffat and his plot holes the size of Alaska '

Care to give a few examples? Mofftat episodes can be dense but they are incredibly tightly plotted in comparison to RTD especially. Look at RTD arcs- Bad Wolf- all he does is have a coupe of words keep popping up- Rose returning just have her pop up randomly in the background every episode- the Doctors death- have it foretold as prophecy that is meaningless until the very last minute- 'he will knock four times'- he uses the same method every time- chuck in a phrase or an image and just keep shoving it randomly in episodes all season until the very end when you get to find out what it meant- but with nowhere near the information for the viewer to take part and try to work it out before hand.

by malickfan Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:47 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:What about Moffat turning 11 into a legendary Warrior whose name scares way enemies- Malick

He didnt RTD did that- Moffat reset it the whole purpose in Pandorica, Good Man Goes to War ect was to bring him back down a peg or two from Messiah status. But to that you first have to empahsis the problem before you knock it down (plus its how River describes him in Library, so we have to see it or its not consistent).

'Er...what about the Doctor walking casually out of his own timeline'

We arent given any reason to think he cantYeah but we aren't given any reason to think he can- it is built up an once in a lifetime, major lawbreaking event, 11 casually picks up Clara and walks out hmm bit of a letdown.

'the Tardis being blown up off screen'

Explained muchlater as the Silence attempting to stop him reaching Trenzalore and creating the very cracks in time they were tying to prevent happeningWasn't this in his very last episode? Is every viewer supposed to recall a series from 3 years ago in perfect detaial? you may have thought of it as an intriguing mystery being eaked out, to me it just seemed like a 'wow big explosion look how timey-wimey I can be' lazy plot hole, solved at the last minute in the quickest way pssoble . You have to take 11's story in completion- and when you do that the answers are all given at their appropriate time and place. Moffats just makes you wait for them rather than tying it up all in a neat bow there and thenThat isn't want casual audiences want, at the end of the day Doctor Who is a Saturday teatime show for families, it is quite a silly premise at heart it shouldn't get to wrapped up in its own hype.

'it was very popular the the general audience'

Its more popular now taken on a global scaleYeah-globally. not in the UK look on the Facebook page, Digital Soy Forums, Reddit, BBC you;ll see many complaints from Brits, personally No one in my family really watches it anymore, they don't like the writing - RTD ea Who could never have filled cinemas world wide for example.

by Mrs Figg Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:48 pm

no I cant be bothered giving examples it would take all week. Laughing

by Mrs Figg Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:49 pm

RTD's gems were dazzling its true. cheers

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:56 pm

wow big explosion look how timey-wimey I can be' lazy plot hole, solved at the last minute in the quickest way pssoble - Malick

I dont see how it can be a lazy plot hole it ties into everything in 11's story- River Song, the Silence, Trenzalore, the cracks in Time and the 50th Anniversary story and the Time Lords- I dont see how thats lazy its intricate and you are free to not like that- but its not at all lazy.

'it is built up an once in a lifetime, major lawbreaking event'

Being there is built up as being the major lawbreaking event because its a massive paradox potentially- not going in or out of it. Thats never presented as an issue fr the Doctor only for others.

'not in the UK look on the Facebook page, Digital Soy Forums, Reddit, BBC you;ll see many complaints from Brits, personally No one in my family really watches it anymore, they don't like the writing'

Actually the fall in numbers for Who is minor, and far less than every other major drama on UK tv- all of which has seen falling numbers (this xmas for example was the first time ever no tv show got over 10 million viewers on the day) and when you take into account its being gong for 10 years now since the reboot the figures are nothing short of miraculous and any other show would give ther right arm for them.

Official BARB viewing figures
7.95 million - Series 1 average (13 episodes)
7.71 million - Series 2 average (13 episodes)
7.55 million - Series 3 average (13 episodes)
8.05 million - Series 4 average (13 episodes)
7.73 million - Series 5 average (13 episodes)
7.52 million - Series 6 average (13 episodes)
7.44 million - Series 7 average (13 episodes)
7.26 million - Series 8 average (12 episodes)

And as I mentioned during the same period of Moffats run the overseas figures have done nothing but rise and rise (series 8 for example has the largest US viewing figures of any Who series).

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:57 pm

no I cant be bothered giving examples it would take all week.- Figg

Or alternatively you know its pure rot and I would easily give you the episodes and dialogue which explain your so called plot holes.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:12 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:no I cant be bothered giving examples it would take all week.- Figg

Or alternatively you know its pure rot and I would easily give you the episodes and dialogue which explain your so called plot holes.

I don't think I could take 2 pages of turd polishing. Very Happy

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:19 am

That ok I dont think I can take 2 pages of you deliberately ignoring the plots and characters and the explanations plainly given just to make unfounded digs at Moffat Very Happy

by Eldorion Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:32 am

Come on guys. Sad

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:37 am

Hey- you cant stand the heat you dont belong on the Who thread - its bloody hot in here! Twisted Evil

(besides Figg knows I can take the abuse and I do her the same courtesy- she doesn't need a hand held any more than I do)

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:38 am

well yes it is better to deliberately ignore large plot holes. Very Happy

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:40 am

If I ever find one in a Moffat episode I'll be sure to do that- hasnt happened yet though in four series.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:41 am

if you say so

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:43 am

Like I say- name me even one plot hole in a Moffat episode. Even just one. With there being apparently so many and them being the size of Alaska that should be easy for you. I wont hold my breath waiting though.