Re: Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [3] SPOILERS

by TranshumanAngel Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:01 pm

Not to mention my fav Tolkien character, Turin Turambar. Twisted Evil

But yes, how should Smaug even know about the Necromancer, let alone who he actually is? And why would Sauron feel confident that Smaug would support him. I realise that Tolkien did broach the idea, but he never developed it. I think a smarter policy for the scriptwriters would have been to just focus on Smaug as the primary villain of the film. (Another reason the three film structure doesn't work - Smaug is relegated to the second film and then dies at the beginning of the third. If we'd had a two film structure we could have met Smaug in film 1 and worked up to his demise in film 2). Again, sigh. Rolling Eyes

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:10 pm

I also think there is a massive story telling issue with having the Necromancer in it as such a major role- you have your main character facing Smaug but its completely overshadowed by an even bigger Bad Guy- who has nothing to do with the main character or the plot the main character is involved in.
Its really bad story telling. Basic stuff in fact.
It just reduces the significance and importance of the main story of Bilbo and makes it a side issue to the much more important issue of the rise of Sauron and the beginning of LotR's.

by TranshumanAngel Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:14 pm

No to mention arbitrarily introducing a third major Big Bad, who is not only superfluous but also badly written and completely boring. I speak of Azog, of course. Given a two film structure, I've no doubt that competent screenwriters could have written a compelling and interesting fairy tale like journey into the beginning the story, focusing on Bilbo and a couple of major dwarves, and focalising the 'action' through his perspective. Instead we are treated to a confusion of perspectives which simultaneously overshadows Bilbo and introduces one villain too many.

by David H Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:36 pm

TranshumanAngel wrote: Given a two film structure, I've no doubt that competent screenwriters could have written a compelling and interesting fairy tale like journey into the beginning the story, focusing on Bilbo and a couple of major dwarves, and focalising the 'action' through his perspective.

Hi Angel. Having just recently watched Petty's most recent purist edits of TH, I wholeheartedly agree. When the focus is returned to Bilbo the story, the movie is much more grounded and to me more interesting. Watching the scenes put back in order pretty much convinces me that when it was originally shot, PJ's intention was to make a movie much closer to the book, with Bilbo still at the center of the story.

If you've got any interest in this at all, I'd recommend sending Petty a PM and taking a look at what he's done.

by Mrs Figg Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:59 pm

I agree with you guys about shades of grey pale

there are many such creatures in Tolkien and as you said it makes the world richer and more ambiguous if they are happily going about their own business. ancient and unknowable Like Old Man Willow and Shelob, not connected to Sauron in any way. Its does narrow everything down to banality if everything is about Sauron (Boyens). Rolling Eyes

by malickfan Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:53 pm

TranshumanAngel wrote:Oh god I registered on this site and then suddenly disappeared! Alas, my computer crashed and I've been so busy, but I'm keen to come back and contribute to this site

I'm listening to Boyens interview now. I find it sad because she seems like such a genuine person, and also genuinely interested in Tolkien's work. Nevertheless, I regret that she seems to like ad hoc justifications for many of the needless changes they make. Thorin has to die on the battlefield? We somehow have to show (indeed, not only imply but show explicitly) that Smaug knows about Sauron and apparently also his plan. "We're assuming an alliance between him [Smaug] and Sauron." Surely there is nothing necessary about this. Not only are dragons traditionally independent of spirit in Tolkien (despite being the creations of Morgoth) but Smaug's goals really aren't that congruent with Sauron's at all. Sure, he kills a great number of people around Dale, but he isn't interested in working as a lackey for Sauron. But of course, the filmmakers don't seem to think these issues through.

She also complains about "talismans" in Tolkien and then goes on to say that "You can't just send Bilbo down there" for "no purpose"...WTF...WTF??!! So on the one hand she complains because there are too many magic talismans, and then goes ahead and admits that they make a whole ludicrous backstory for the Arkenstone which it does not require. It is already imbued with significance as a symbol of Thorin (and by extension Longbeard) greed. Why does it also need to function as a magic light bulb to which the 'seven houses' look in times of war? Where is the sense in that..??? Sigh

Welcome Back T.H.A, you make many good points and I agree about most of them.

I think it basically boils down to Boyens being a fan not a scholar of Tolkien's work (she stated in an interview in 2012 she hadn't read The Silmarillion in 25 years because it would be too painful to read about material she didn't have acess to (material which has no place in The Hobbit anyway) nothing stopped her from re-reading it in the 12 years prior till she was hired on LOTR, kinda ironic since they make up so much padding and back-stories of their own for these films), she likes it and enjoys it, but perhaps dosen't understand or appreciate how and why Tolkien wrote and included what he does, not that this a is a bad thing (She is s screenwriter-show very clearly! Not tell very vaguely is probably a good idea for Blockbuster films) as much of his influences and thematic concepts have no place in the angle Jackson's films took, and I have no doubt having a hardcore Tolkien expert on the writing team could end up being a hindrance anyway, much of the stuff we complain about on this Forum is rather silly and minor, I certainly wouldn't want the job of being a screenwriter (especially on such a huge production, which seems to be only half written when shooting starts). But it is a little annoying she is held up as the 'Expert' of the trio, when many of the ideas and reasons she has for changes. don't seem necessary or in the spirit of the source material. Just my opnion.

I seem to recall Bilbo is sent down into the Mountain to meet Smaug rather reluctantly, and comes back with a Golden Cup, arrogant greedy Dwarves are a common motif in the legends and Mythology Tolkien was drawing on, and I think the stealing the cup incident was a reference to Beowolf.

by bungobaggins Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:55 pm

Tonight's the night...

by Eldorion Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:06 pm

Welcome back TA! Good to see you again. IIRC, Boyens has always talked that way, depicting changes as necessities. "Death on film" is another choice phrase of hers.

I think it's interesting how Boyens now has a reputation as the sole "Tolkien scholar" on the writing team when in years past PJ was also described as that by some fans. I guess he's made it clear enough since then that the books are not his main area of interest.

by Eldorion Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:07 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Tonight's the night...

I might wait until after I see the film tomorrow to read your thoughts, but I'm looking forward to your review, bungo! Smile

by bungobaggins Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:21 pm

Eldorion wrote:Welcome back TA! Good to see you again. IIRC, Boyens has always talked that way, depicting changes as necessities. "Death on film" is another choice phrase of hers.

I think it's interesting how Boyens now has a reputation as the sole "Tolkien scholar" on the writing team when in years past PJ was also described as that by some fans. I guess he's made it clear enough since then that the books are not his main area of interest.

Unless you've got a PhD in English Literature with an emphasis in Tolkien's writings, you should not be thought of as a "Tolkien scholar."

by bungobaggins Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:21 pm

Eldorion wrote:I'm looking forward to your review, bungo!

Ditto!

by Mrs Figg Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:53 pm

go deep, go hard, give us some beef.

all in the best possible taste of course.

by bungobaggins Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:55 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:go deep go hard

Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [3] SPOILERS - Page 4 Tumblr_mvtmn5xfAY1s1pg3bo2_400

by Forest Shepherd Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:48 pm

malickfan wrote:...and I have no doubt having a hardcore Tolkien expert on the writing team could end up being a hindrance anyway, much of the stuff we complain about on this Forum is rather silly and minor

malickfan wrote:
I seem to recall Bilbo is sent down into the Mountain to meet Smaug rather reluctantly, and comes back with a Golden Cup, arrogant greedy Dwarves are a common motif in the legends and Mythology Tolkien was drawing on, and I think the stealing the cup incident was a reference to Beowulf.

Yeah, just a reference to the oldest epic poem in all of English literature, that's all. It's only been around for a thousand years, after all.
But hey, who needs that! Let's instead reference a set of films that came out 10 years ago for the majority of our film content.
The irony, of course, is that the set of three films that came out ten years ago were, themselves, full of references to literary works and themes as old as Beowulf.
I guess that's what watering-down of culture looks like.

P.S.
It's not really the point, but I don't actually see how stealing the cup is a reference to Beowulf at all. If you want to see that referenced, instead look at the chapter wherein Thorin gifts his followers (particularly Bilbo) with treasure. I forget the name of that, but it's something to do with geld and followers and the economy of kingship and so on.

by Tinuviel Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:50 pm

I'll be seeing it as well tonight. I'll probably give my initial thoughts when I get back, but I have to go to sleep since I'm driving seven hours tomorrow Rolling Eyes

If one good thing comes out of this, it'll be that I'll be done with finals and my brain will be so fried that I won't get crabbit at the film but just laugh inappropriately.

by Forest Shepherd Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:52 pm

bungobaggins wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:go deep go hard

Good one!

But you could have included the entire thing.

by Eldorion Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:19 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Unless you've got a PhD in English Literature with an emphasis in Tolkien's writings, you should not be thought of as a "Tolkien scholar."

I agree that the term should be reserved for those who make actual academic study of Tolkien's works, but I still find it interesting that even people using looser definitions seem less likely to describe PJ as one.

NB what time does your showing start? bounce

by Eldorion Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:21 pm

Congrats on the end of finals, Tin! I'm actually delaying going so that I'll have time to think and write about the film instead of having to go straight to bed. Razz

by bungobaggins Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:25 pm

Eldorion wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:Unless you've got a PhD in English Literature with an emphasis in Tolkien's writings, you should not be thought of as a "Tolkien scholar."

I agree that the term should be reserved for those who make actual academic study of Tolkien's works, but I still find it interesting that even people using looser definitions seem less likely to describe PJ as one.

NB what time does your showing start?

It starts at 7, but I haven't actually bought tickets yet. Sofa

I can't imagine my local theater selling out though since it's rather small and out of the way. In the mean time I'm doing some Xmas shopping. Smile

by bungobaggins Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:36 am

In the theater right now. Smile

by bungobaggins Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:48 am

I don't feel like I've properly prepared myself for all the cringe inducing moments I read about.

by halfwise Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:01 am

Be strong, Bungo....be strong.

by Forest Shepherd Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:55 pm

May the crabbit be with you.

by Sinister71 Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:37 am

I thought it was hysterical, when Tauriel was crying over Kili talking about love hurting and Thranduil saying, "that's cause it's real" BS , I heard at least 3 other people chuckling and saying give me a break. This film reached a new high for crappy dialog and poorly written scenes.

by ElendilTheShort Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:01 am

Sinister71 wrote:I thought it was hysterical, when Tauriel was crying over Kili talking about love hurting and Thranduil saying, "that's cause it's real" BS , I heard at least 3 other people chuckling and saying give me a break. This film reached a new high for crappy dialog and poorly written scenes.

sorry not even close......

the worst was when the star crossed dwarf and elfette were crapping on about their apparent pree teen romance on the shores of the lake after Smaug smoked Esgaroth and she turned her head away from him and looked down all embarrased n stuff. I thought that was flippin mint as far as crap film was concerned, right out of a mid day soap opera that was.