Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

by Bluebottle Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:04 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:Project Combined Reading has officially commenced, very excited to see how this goes

(The jump from Cersei I to Tyrion I was when it hit me. Smile

)

by Ringdrotten Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:59 pm

Is Cersei Lannister ever referred to as Cersei Baratheon? scratch

?

by halfwise Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:34 pm

Good question. I don't remember it ever done in books or film. But Blue seems to have search capabilities, maybe he'll find out for you.

by Eldorion Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:10 pm

I don't recall her ever being referred to as such. I thought I recalled Catelyn being referred to as "Catelyn Tully" fairly regularly, but I just went back and control-F'd my way through AGOT and ACOK and it only seems to come up when discussing her life or pre-marriage or when Littlefinger is creeping on her. So perhaps Cersei can just get away with bucking the trend cause of who her family them sharing her disdain for Robert, even though he was King?

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:46 pm

By then the others were dismounting as well, and grooms were coming forward for their
mounts. Robert’s queen, Cersei Lannister, entered on foot with her younger children.
The wheelhouse in which they had ridden, a huge double-decked carriage of oiled oak
and gilded metal pulled by forty heavy draft horses, was too wide to pass through the
castle gate. Ned knelt in the snow to kiss the queen’s ring, while Robert embraced
Catelyn like a long-lost sister. Then the children had been brought forward, introduced,
and approved of by both sides.

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:46 pm

I can probably do a more proper search later, but I can't remember it happening. Smile

by Ringdrotten Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:06 pm

Eldorion wrote:I don't recall her ever being referred to as such. I thought I recalled Catelyn being referred to as "Catelyn Tully" fairly regularly

Only when speaking of her past - her named changed to Catelyn Stark when she wed. When she captures Tyrion at that inn she says "I was still Catelyn Tully the last time" something something - I think she says that in the book as well, so one should think that women took the names of their husbands scratch

It could be as you say, though, that the Lannisters are so powerful they get away with keeping their name even when wedding kings. Sounds odd, but can't remember her ever being referred to as a Baratheon.

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:10 pm

Maybe you've spotted a goof by George, with the "I used to be Catelyn Tully." thing. (Meaning he's not consistent.) Shrugging

by Eldorion Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:44 pm

I don't know that it's a goof, but there don't seem to be consistent rules. Elia is always referred to as "Elia Martell" or "Elia of Dorne", even when discussing her life after marriage. On the other hand, Lysa seems to be exclusively "Lysa Arryn" post-marriage. Too lazy to try to find more data points right now. Razz

by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 11:33 am

And George is back to make sure we don't think the books in any way will go in the direction of the show. (I find it funny that every time they butcher one of his storylines he releases another sample chapter.) Razz

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Ps. This has been read at conventions prevously, but there's never been a print version or a recording available. Just fan synopsises from the readings.

by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 12:20 pm

You want to know what the Sand Snakes, Prince Doran, Areo Hotah, Ellaria Sand, Darkstar, and the rest will be up to in WINDS OF WINTER? Quite a lot, actually. The sample will give you a taste. For the rest, you will need to wait.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/487298.html

You've gotta love George. Razz

by Ringdrotten Wed May 11, 2016 1:24 pm

Staying well away from all such samples and tastes - want the whole book to be new when I read it Very Happy

Still, I like the sound of "And George is back to make sure we don't think the books in any way will go in the direction of the show." I like it very much Nod

by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 2:04 pm

I only saw one real spoiler in the excerpt, well okay, maybe two.

It's nice to get a true taste of Sand Snakes again.

by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 2:06 pm

I've read the first sample chapters of the charactes that has been published, some of which are great and a real appatizer for the coming book, but not the second ones. I thought that would be getting a bit to ahead of oneself, reading a bit too much of what one's waiting for. Smile

by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 2:07 pm

You probably should have read this before reading that, Halfwise. That's the second chapter from Winds that character has had released.

http://archive.is/2PS7R

by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 2:33 pm

So I can move one of the spoilers to that first chapter.

by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 7:25 pm

I read a very detailed synopsis of this chapter shortly after I finished ADWD (which I didn't read until 2014, despite having read the first four books in 2009). Nice to have the option of reading it myself now, but my main takeaway before was that barely anything happened in those two chapters. Doesn't really bode well for those hoping or expecting that TWOW would be a "return to form".

by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 7:30 pm

Well, you can't really expect that he'd publish a teaser that would give away that much. The spoilers I was talking about were not that significant.

by Ringdrotten Wed May 11, 2016 7:43 pm

Try the combined reading of 4 and 5, Eldo - I'd say GRRM was never "out of form", the publishers screwed him over Wink

by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 8:25 pm

halfwise wrote:Well, you can't really expect that he'd publish a teaser that would give away that much. The spoilers I was talking about were not that significant.

I don't either but that's not really what I was commenting about. It's a little discouraging to know that the first two chapters of Arianne's are just her traveling towards something that we hope will be interesting, given that for the last five years so many people have been saying "just wait for TWOW, where we'll finally see lots of things happening after more than a decade of build-up!"

Ringdrotten wrote:Try the combined reading of 4 and 5, Eldo - I'd say GRRM was never "out of form", the publishers screwed him over

I may try that if I ever do a full re-read of the series again. I can't really blame the publishers though; the alternative would have been a 13 year wait for a 2000+ page book; not sure that would have been better. Ideally (in my book) his editor would have put her foot down but Martin is hardly the only popular author whose editor effectively bailed after success.

by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 9:22 pm

From Isaac Asimov's introduction to the Del Rey printing of Foundation, referring to the writing of Foundations Edge:

In January 1977...my editor at Doubleday suggested I do "An important book -- a Foundation novel perhaps." I said, "I'd rather do an autobiography." And I did, 64,000 words of it.

In January 1981, Doubleday apparently lost its temper. At least Hugh O'neill, then my editor, said "Betty Prashkar wants to see you" and marched me into her office. She was then one of the senior editors, a sweet and gentle person.

She wasted no time. "Isaac" she said, "you are going to write a novel for us and you are going to sign a contract to that effect."

"Betty" I said, "I already am working on a big science book for Doubleday and I have to revise the Biographical Encyclopedia for Doubleday and --"

"It can all wait" she said. You are going to sign a contract for a novel. What's more, we are going to give you a $50,000 dollar advance for it."

That was a stunner. I don't like advances, they put me under too much obligation. ...
"That's too much money, Betty."
"No it isn't."
"Doubleday will lose it's shirt."
"No it won't."

I said desperately, "All right, have the contract read that I don't get any money until I inform you in writing that I have started the novel."

"Are you crazy?" She said. "You'll never start it if that's in the contract. You'll get $25,000 now and $25,000 when you turn in the manuscript."

"But suppose the novel's no good?"

"Now you're being silly." And she ended the conversation.

That night, the science fiction editor at Doubleday called to express his pleasure. "And remember, when we say 'novel', we mean a science fiction novel, and nothing else. And when we say 'science fiction novel', we mean a Foundation novel, and nothing else."

I moaned that I was not my master anymore, and Hugh O'Neill said cheerfully "That's right."

Sigh. Editors these days are milquetoasts.

by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 9:40 pm

I think George has probably eclipsed the might of any editor with Game of Thrones. I have to say though that I feel an artist has the right to use as long on his work as he feels the need to, and write exactly what he feels like. Then his audience again have the right to judge him on his choices and product. An editors job is find the middle road between the artistic concerns of the writer and the wishes of his audience, not to strong arm the writer to cow tow to public demands.

As for aFfCs and aDwDs I think they would both have been helped by dividing the books chrnologically rather than geographically. There is a book there of quite astonishing scope, but its publication meant it never really got to other readers than those who were prepared to take the extra work of the chronological approach.

Certainly there have been mistakes made on the part of Georges' camp, but having a hit like GoTs on your hands is kind of like the lightning striking three, not two, times i the same spot. I am ready to forgive George for (perhaps over)enjoying his moment as the centre of the worlds attention, who among us can really begrudge him that?

by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 9:44 pm

Art often thrives on limitations. Editors are one such limitation. I think the books that have been published since ASOIAF started to become really popular show that removing limitations has not resulted in better books.

For as long as the first three volumes each are, they have a remarkable amount of momentum and density (in terms of interesting things happening frequently). AFFC and ADWD, to put it lightly, do not (IMO of course). I'm not sure how much reading the books in a different order than intended would alleviate that.

I did think that ADWD, after roughly the point at which it re-merged with the characters from AFFC, did regain some of that momentum, which was encouraging, but of course it was published without its intended conclusion. The lack of being able to stand on its own while still being part of a tightly-integrated whole is another difference between the first three books and the most recent two.

by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 9:59 pm

Yeah, I'll still hold that there is a remarkable book in aFfCs and aDwDs, and presumably the beggining of WoW. But I'm sure we can all agree how it came about was not ideal.

I'm just saying, the part of the reason for that that was the show is very human and very understandable.

by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 10:07 pm

I'm not how we can really assess the impact of the show until TWOW is published, since ADWD was published just a few months after GOT S1.

Unless you're talking about the length of time he's taking, although I personally don't think we'd have seen TWOW by now, show or not.