Re: The General Tolkien News Thread

[azriel]

That, I loved, I liked the use of colours, at the right time. Conveyed a lot. So easy to understand yet told a lot in its simplicity. Enjoyed that

[Pettytyrant101]

Enjoyed that- thanks Chris

[malickfan]

Evan Palmer has created a brilliant illustrated version of Ainulindalë (Music of the Ainur), the first part of Tolkien's Silmarillion. It tells of the creation of Middle-earth & the origin of the Powers that shape its destiny.

http://www.evanpalmercomics.com/ainulindale

I've seen that before, great stuff

[Bluebottle]

That's really pretty. I always loved that chapter. Music as the basis of a foundational myth and all. Harmony.. dissonance.. It's pretty great.

[malickfan]

Going off on one of my random, rhetorical and really quite rambling musings here, I did initially roll my eyes at this:

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2015/08/13/98983-new-tolkien-book-the-story-of-kullervo-updated/

While I doubt the rights will be released any time soon, this sounds like an edge-of your seat read that would make a fantastic film. With stories like this kicking around in his desk drawers (or wherever the Professor kept them!), one has to wonder what would be his chosen medium if alive and publishing today. Would he be like J.K. Rowling and write not only novels, but for the stage, and the screen as he expanded his magical world? Or do you think he would’ve just stuck to books? Before you go into a lecture about Jackson’s films “ruining everything,” remember that Tolkien willingly sold the rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, knowing full well their stories would be told on the big screen with all kinds of changes to match the cinematic storytelling medium

My sarcastic view on TORN's enthusiasm for more movies aside (though I'd agree the synopsis sounds reasonably cinematic), I think it raises an interesting questions...with the film franchise seemingly over for the immediate future, and the Tolkien Estates apparent reluctance to sell any further rights do you:

Think there will still be an 'industry' when it comes to Tolkien's books?

Has his academic background has become swept up by the culture of the films? i.e this seems quite an personal, obscure peice of writing, in the wake of the films will it naturally be compared to his 'blocksbuster' works?

-I've read some criticism of The Fall Of Arthur for instance, some reviewers seemed angry an incomplete academic poem was published, viewing it as a cash in on the films, whereas I got the impression it was published to be the opposite.

In a way its uncomfortable enough the Tolkien Estate is publishing a incomplete 100 year old reworking of the Kavela by Tolkien and pushing it as a 'new story'-I'm certainly not crapping on the material or their right to publish it (I've pre-ordered a copy) merely pointing out it's a little...odd, a full century after he wrote an incomplete story it's seen fit to be published and marketed (at least by Amazon, and judging by Beowulf and The Fall Of Arthur bookstores as well probably) at casual fans as a standalone book, after its previous publication in an academic journal.

It's always interesting to see new/unpublished material by Tolkien get published, but I can't help but wonder in the wake of the films ending, what the future holds and whether The Fall Of Arthur, Beowulf etc would have been published otherwise...


-Eldo, out of interest, do you sell many of Tolkien's books outside of the 'Big Three'?

[Eldorion]

Goddamn at that disclaimer. The purists of TORn must be gaining strength for someone to feel the need to slap that on a blog post. It's not even particularly accurate. Tolkien sold the rights, yes, and the filmmakers had every right to make changes to the source material, but no honest reading of Tolkien's letters and biography can suggest that he would have been pleased with those changes. Plus we get shades of that old tautological strawman that "some changes have to be made" as if that excuses everything. But I digress...

Eldo, out of interest, do you sell many of Tolkien's books outside of the 'Big Three'?

I can't say much, both because I don't have the figures in front of me and because it would be against policy to discuss specific sales figures. However, from my general observations (primarily outside of work), there is a sizable gulf in interest between TH/LOTR and The Silmarillion, and then an even larger gulf between TS and everything else (with the possible exception of Unfinished Tales). Certainly the more academic History of Middle-earth series has never had the same appeal even to many dedicated fans; that much is clear from following lore discussions on Tolkien forums. The recent string of non-Middle-earth books following the publication of The Children of Hurin are somewhere between UT and HOME in style, but the obscurity of the subject matter and the volume of endnotes and appendices makes them hard to get into.

I do not believe these are cashing in on the films, at least not on the Estate's part. Christopher has spent the better part of the last 40 years editing and publishing his father's works, and while there was a gap of approximately a decade between the conclusion of HOME and the arrival of COH (which was the beginning of and model for the current string of Tolkien books we're getting), this current process began before The Hobbit was even a sure thing to occur. I think the publishers and the media certainly give these books a higher profile than similar academic titles because of the author's name, though I suspect that as things progress and more people become aware of their nature they will be treated/discussed more in line with other books of their sort.

That said, I could be wrong, because if you'd asked me this question five years ago I would have predicted people were already catching on to the fact that these weren't new mass appeal, blockbuster novels or anything like that. If even Children of Hurin couldn't become a break-out hit, being an actual Middle-earth tale and in such complete form, there was no chance of anything but diminishing returns (of money/popular attention, not scholarly worth) in the subsequent, far more obscure titles. But they keep finding reviewers to cream themselves over these books and recommend them as gifts for Tolkien fans, apparently not having noticed that the vast majority of Tolkien fans are not particularly interested in either his non-Middle-earth work or in relatively dry, rarified works of scholarship.

[Eldorion]

Jumping back several pages...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/realise-minas-tirith#/story

Good luck to them...they are going to need it...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/raising-sauron-s-army-marching-upon-minas-tirith#/story

*sniggers*

[Elthir]

I do think some of the characterizations of the Kullervo tale might be... a bit confusing... some sellers are seemingly trying to wrangle in Middle-earth fans, not just Tolkien fans. Over at TORN, one person asked if the tale was set in Middle-earth, due to the language used.

The answer is no. But Kullervo himself is descended from a bird. Who wouldn't want to read a tale about such a person?

[Elthir]

Tolkien sold the rights, yes, and the filmmakers had every right to make changes to the source material, but no honest reading of Tolkien's letters and biography can suggest that he would have been pleased with those changes.

Heheh. I once read a post that actually defended Jackson's films based on Tolkien's reactions to the Zimmerman film treatment.

Unfortunately I was on a bridge at the time and fell off of it, due to the ensuing confusion of the world turning downside up.

Luckily it was a small bridge... plus the world turned out to be round, so I fell a bit upwards as soon as I realized this.

[Pettytyrant101]

At least you weren't unhorsed as well Elthir!

[Elthir]

Good point Petty!

But just to make a distinction that no one cares about: unhorsed is "to cause to fall from a horse, as in battle" and sometimes one is pushed back violently over the crupper -- if and when this occurs, if the unhorsing blow has not knocked you into a wonderful moment of unconsciousness, you might see your feet in the air.

Behorsed is a very different experience.

[David H]

Yes, I'd say that to be behorsed is almost exactly like being benighted, except that instead of darkness and ignorance you use a grey horse. But then I'm not a Loremaster and would humbly accept correction.

[Elthir]

Well, if one is bewitched that doesn't necessarily mean one has been knocked off a witch.

I'm not sure how revealing that is however, now that I read it.

[Eldorion]

This discussion reminded me of squire's (from the TORn forums) "Tolkien would have LOVED it!", which in addition to touching on this same topic in a (IMO) spot-on and funny way also fills me with nostalgia for the pre-Web 2.0 era of fansite design.

http://users.bestweb.net/~jfgm/TreesForWeb/index.htm

[malickfan]

Show of hands: do you guys prefer nasty, dark, dirty wet holes, or dry, bare, sandy holes with nothing in it to eat?

The Latter

[malickfan]

Goddamn at that disclaimer.  The purists of TORn must be gaining strength for someone to feel the need to slap that on a blog post.

From my increasingly sporadic visits to TORn it seems most of the purists can no longer muster up the enthusiasm to post, or at the very least it's much quieter than it was when I was an active poster, I wouldn't be surprised if we have a larger proportion of posts per regular some weeks. I suppose it's possible due to the films mixed reception TORn has become more open to taking a less neutral view, like us they are self funded, and there isn't much ofa future invested in a dead franchise unless you look for news ways to look at things.

It's not even particularly accurate. Tolkien sold the rights, yes, and the filmmakers had every right to make changes to the source material, but no honest reading of Tolkien's letters and biography can suggest that he would have been pleased with those changes

I like to think before looking at the films analytically Tolkien (assuming you were to get a time machine and transport his post LOTR self to the present day) would probably be too bamboozled by the sheer advances in cinema to offer any strong objections at first, he seemed like quite a reserved and humble (if brutally honest) man, and I think at the very least he'd be honored (and possibly embarrassed) people still cared about his writings (40 years later) enough to get worked up about a film he could have never imagined being so successful.

Of course the evidence does point to him probably hating the pop culture that has sprung up around the films, their debasing of his themes and carefully constructed chronology, the scripts over emphasis on violence and 'comedy', but I'd assume he'd appreciate someone was mad enough to give it a go.

I've said it before, I'm not overly fond of many of Jackson's interpretations of the source material, but without them, none of us would be posting here, and the films probably wouldn't be as interesting to talk about if they hadn't be so different, the way Jackson went about making the films, and the artistic merits of the resulting films is of course still open to debate, but I think that's part of the charm, even purists get fired up about the films for a good reason, for better or worse they spark passionate debate, and I'll always commend (or shake my first at) Jackson for that at the very least.

I can't say much, both because I don't have the figures in front of me and because it would be against policy to discuss specific sales figures.

No worries, I was just musing to myself as to whether Beowulf, The Fall Of Arthur etc were selling for the right reasons i.e. I bought both relatively cheaply, more out of a desire to complete the collection, rather than any major interest in the subject matter-but in both cases the books were sold in the general Fantasy section in bookshops, heavily tied in with T.H promotion, I can't blame the book chains (and Amazon as well I suppose) for doing things this way, but I think it's a little sad the academic side of Tolkien's writings seems to be misrepresented a little in the media (though again, the movies probably increased sales).

I do not believe these are cashing in on the films, at least not on the Estate's part

I don't either, at least not intentionally, I think it's just a happy irony of the films current sucess that it's been perceived that way, some people I know took a rather dim view of The Tolkien Estate during the pre-hobbit lawsuits (one or two of them have chnaged their tune after seeing the resulting films ) for 'chasing money', but I've never really got that sense from them, I'd say it's the opposite with releases such as Beowulf, and Kullervo overtly cautious and protective if anything, if they were after money they'd sell more screenrights.

I think the publishers and the media certainly give these books a higher profile than similar academic titles because of the author's name, though I suspect that as things progress and more people become aware of their nature they will be treated/discussed more in line with other books of their sort

But they keep finding reviewers to cream themselves over these books and recommend them as gifts for Tolkien fans, apparently not having noticed that the vast majority of Tolkien fans are not particularly interested in either his non-Middle-earth work or in relatively dry, rarified works of scholarship

I doubt most of the reviewers are to be honest

[Eldorion]

The decline in activity is a shame but it's something that all single-IP fandoms and forums have to face at one point or another.  Hopefully TORn is able to chart a relatively smooth course through the difficult transition period.

I think the Tolkien Estate is poorly understood by a lot of people and that's part of the reason for the criticisms.  I can of course understood why someone who really wants a Silmarillion movie would be upset with them, though.  However, the "greedy Estate" argument (which I've heard plenty of times myself) has never made sense to me.  If they were in it for the money, they'd be pushing for as many adaptations and merchandizing opportunities as possible.  The exact opposite of their actual stance!

I've said it before, I'm not overly fond of many of Jackson's interpretations of the source material, but without them, none of us would be posting here, and the films probably wouldn't be as interesting to talk about if they hadn't be so different, the way Jackson went about making the films, and the artistic merits of the resulting films is of course still open to debate, but I think that's part of the charm, even purists get fired up about the films for a good reason, for better or worse they spark passionate debate, and I'll always commend (or shake my first at) Jackson for that at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, I fucking love the LOTR movies.  I don't think Tolkien would have, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the hell out of them.  I wouldn't have spent as much time as I have analyzing and pondering them if I didn't enjoy them.  The contrast with The Hobbit is stark: I've written plenty of critiques of The Hobbit but I have absolutely no desire to really delve deep and try to understand the films completely.  I only wanted to do that with LOTR because I thought they were really good movies, even though I also think they have a number of serious flaws.  They're a phenomenal artistic achievement and in my opinion the greatest blockbuster films ever made.  And I don't mean that in a backhanded sort of way; I have a great appreciation for quality blockbuster filmmaking.  They're also the gem of the fantasy film genre, though Princess Bride is up there too.

And you're absolutely right that Tolkien fandom today would be unrecognizable without the movie (and I'd add it's unlikely anyone else would have made them if PJ hadn't).  Forumshire certainly wouldn't exist.

[malickfan]

Well said Eldo.

I must admit I don't think I've watched the LOTR films all the way through in three or four years, after the Hobbit I rather lost my enthusiasm for Jackson's angle on things...maybe a marathon is in order I was obsessed with the movies long before reading the book afterall...

Forumshire certainly wouldn't exist

That's a sad thought not only for this community, but for the poor internet who no doubt would have attracted us nutters one way or another

[Eldorion]

There was a stretch from about 2007 through 2011 where I watched the entire trilogy roughly once every six months. Often I would watch one film per weekend over the course of three weeks but sometimes I'd do it all in a single weekend, one film per day. I never did get around to trying the entire trilogy in one day thing. The last time I saw the films all the way through was the theatrical revival in summer 2011 to celebrate the Blu-ray box set's release, though. I tried watching FOTR again within a year of that but got annoyed at myself for constantly anticipating every line of dialogue (I was also just in a shitty emotional place at that point in my life though). After that I decided maybe it was time for a break from watching them so regularly, plus my Tolkien fan experience began to be more about The Hobbit. But I've thought a lot about revisiting the trilogy again over the last several months (maybe a year or so). Actually, as a result of this thread I brought up the idea with my dad over dinner and hopefully we'll watch FOTR on Saturday night when it works for both of our schedules. He's the one who initially got me into LOTR and he watched several of The Hobbit movies and EEs with me, but I can't remember the last time we watched LOTR together.

That's a sad thought not only for this community, but for the poor internet who no doubt would have attracted us nutters one way or another

Thank goodness!

[malickfan]

New fan film listed on IMDB:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4371924/

[Pettytyrant101]

MMmmmmm I smell liberties being taken already just from the few sentence sum up.

[azriel]

What an unfortunate name the actor who plays Boffin has

[malickfan]

Rare Tolkien poem being reprinted:

http://lingwe.blogspot.be/2015/08/a-standalone-edition-of-lay-of-aotrou.html

[David H]

[azriel]

That elephant is going places, your making full use of that are'nt you