Re: The General Tolkien News Thread

[malickfan]

Maybe a more detailed comparison between the Kullervo tale and the earliest forms of the Turin tale? Which could also be stretched for Middle-earth fans by comparing all that to the later forums of the Turin tale.Perhaps, though COH already coevered the story really well in terms of its evolution

I have been slooowlllyy reading my Kalevala translation... so slowly I haven't yet gotten to Kullervo, so, so far I've purposely resisted reading Tolkien's prose version (although it's not completely prose) and am saving it for after I read 'the original'Maybe this will reprint the original as well?.

So with Tolkien Studies, so far I've read the manuscript essay about the Kalevala, and the notes on names, including VF's notes. Enjoyable. But all I know so far about Tolkien's actual story (IIRC) is that JRRT injected some of his own invented names, for some reason... he couldn't resist?Experimenting with his early Gnomish gramma maybe?

So not having read the early Turin tale in years... and 'saving' Tolkien's version of Kullervo until I read my translation... I don't even know what there might be to say about the two things in comparison. I already know some very basic Kullervo details like (spoiler alert): wedding his sister unknowingly (well I think he weds her, in any case they have... well, you know), and the talking sword when Kullervo... well, you know...For a devout Roman Catholic I always felt it was a little odd Tolkien was so interested in a story featuring 'well, you kno' suicide and murder, he must have been fun at parties...'

... that thing Turin did right after his sword 'spoke' to him.

I wonder if this would be suitibale opportunity to print some of Tolkien's lecture notes, I have read that Tolkien's unpublished academic writings are extensive, perhaps this would be a good opportunity to draw attention back to the scholar Tolkien saw himself as, not the author his fans think of.

[Eldorion]

It's like that old line from the journalist Steven Hart:

Tolkien’s soul was in the Lord’s keeping, but his heart -- like that of his friend C.S.Lewis - quickened to a pagan drumbeat.

[malickfan]

It's like that old line from the journalist Steven Hart:

Tolkien’s soul was in the Lord’s keeping, but his heart -- like that of his friend C.S.Lewis - quickened to a pagan drumbeat.

[Eldorion]

That was in response to your comment about Tolkien's thematic interests seeming odd for a Roman Catholic.

[Pettytyrant101]

Always liked that quote.

[malickfan]

That was in response to your comment about Tolkien's thematic interests seeming odd for a Roman Catholic.

Ah ok.

[Elthir]

Good point about the evolution already being out there, so probably going that route would seem a bit much, even if we get the 'Flieger version', so to speak.

Technical niggle: Qenya [so spelled] is the language in part inspired by Finnish... Gnomish was on the Welsh side of inspiration.

[Pettytyrant101]

Just curious Elthir do you know if Tolkien ever studied Scots or Irish gaelic?

[Elthir]

Hmm, at the moment I recall certain comments in letters, Petty, about the Irish language, with a bit of a reference about study...

'I am very untravelled, though I know Wales, and have often been in Scotland (never north of the Tay), and know something of France, Belgium, and Ireland. I have spent a good deal of time in Ireland, and am since last July actually a D. Litt. of University College Dublin; but be it noted I first set foot in 'Eire' in 1949 after The Lord of the Rings was finished, and find both Gaelic and the air of Ireland wholly alien – though the latter (not the language) is attractive."

JRRT to HM Co., June 1955; letters p. 219

And this...

I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive. (...) 'Though actual congruences (of form + sense) occur in unrelated real languages, and it is impossible in constructing imaginary languages from a limited number of component sounds to avoid such resemblances (...), it remains remarkable that nasc is the word for 'ring' in Gaelic (Irish: in Scottish usually written nasg). It also fits well in meaning, since it also means, and prob. originally meant, a bond, and can be used for an 'obligation'. Nonetheless I only became aware, or again aware, of its existence recently in looking for something in a Gaelic dictionary. I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language, but it is of course of great historical and philological interest, and I have at various times studied it. (With alas! very little success.) It is thus probable that nazg is actually derived from it, and this short, hard and clear vocable, sticking out from what seems to me (an unloving alien) a mushy language, became lodged in some comer of my linguistic memory'.

That's from a letter to Mr. Rang.

[Pettytyrant101]

Thanks Elthir. Interesting his views on gaelic. Although if he never went north of the Tay he probably never heard it spoken as a native tongue which is a shame. It tends to sound better and more melodious in speech and song than it does in the written word.
Also interesting he has a cut off line for his dislike of Irish Gaelic- from Old Irish downwards- I am not actually sure what Old Irish is, and if its a term used similarly to Old English and therefore not truly Irish gaelic itself he dislikes.

[feanor 1999]

Oh Farrccck...

Not PJ unleashed on the Narn... Please say it isn't so. its depressing as it is...

[Elthir]

Also interesting he has a cut off line for his dislike of Irish Gaelic- from Old Irish downwards- I am not actually sure what Old Irish is, and if its a term used similarly to Old English and therefore not truly Irish gaelic itself he dislikes.

I'm no expert here, but my guess is that Tolkien's 'from Old Irish downwards' includes any tongue descending from this ancestor (the Goidelic branch), despite that he seems to refer to Gaelic 'as a language' ('I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language...') -- thus including Modern Irish (as seems confirmed in the letters) and Scottish Gaelic unfortunately (including Middle Irish and Manx I guess).

In other words any Gaelic language 'downward' on this branch of tongues starting from Old Irish. That's how I interpret it anyway, so far.

[malickfan]

Apparently the Author of 'Mirkwood' is going to develop it into a feature film:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/steve-hillard-jrr-tolkien-mirkwood-223062

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2025616/

Considering Tolkien never went beyond an interview as a code breaker I'd say he's of to a good start

Even if Jackson isn't making anymore films, Hollywood is far from done with Tolkien...

[Elthir]

Tolkien surfing on his briefcase.

Prepare for it!

[malickfan]

Tolkien surfing on his briefcase.

Prepare for it!

Nah, they'll save that for the extended edition.

[Eldorion]

I find myself wondering if Tolkien's antipathy for Gaelic has anything to do with his intense jealousy (as a younger man, at least) of the Irish for preserving a mythology of faerie untainted by French conquest. The Book of Lost Tales straight up mocks Irish mythology, which always seemed to me to be a case of protesting too much.

[Orwell]

I find myself wondering if Tolkien's antipathy for Gaelic has anything to do with his intense jealousy (as a younger man, at least) of the Irish for preserving a mythology of faerie untainted by French conquest. The Book of Lost Tales straight up mocks Irish mythology, which always seemed to me to be a case of protesting too much.

What an outrageous comment.    Your next one, I presume, will be: "Tolkien would absolutely love what PJ has done with The Hobbit."

[Eldorion]

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

[Pettytyrant101]

Irish for preserving a mythology of faerie untainted by French conquest. - Eldo

Thats also true if Scottish. Although the two mythologies are very closely intertwined from the point of the Dalreida arrival onwards, and the dominant tribes of Scotland prior to that point didn't have a written language as such. And a lot of what is recorded of their stories is done so through the filter of the early Celtic/Christian Church.
And the stuff the people before that left us, the circles, the cup mark rocks and the spirals we are sill puzzling over the meaning of.
But we have no shortage of folk tales and myths.

Its always seemed somewhat odd to me that Tolkien with his love of myth and language would seem to dislike the Celtic varieties of Ireland and Scotland and yet embrace the Welsh.
So it must have been something other than just their common Celtic cultures that he found off putting.

[Eldorion]

Well to be fair, the BoLT takes shots at Welsh folklore too, so I may have jumped the gun a bit with ascribing Tolkien's dislike of Gaelic to mythological penis-envy.

[Tinuviel]

Tolkien Estate is brutal! Rightly so I suppose, but what difference is there between Mirkwood and a biography? Just fictionalized is all. I'd love to see a film about Tolkien. Actually, I wanna see a Doctor Who episode with him in it first, but that's a whole nother story.

[Mirabella]

Well to be fair, the BoLT takes shots at Welsh folklore too, so I may have jumped the gun a bit with ascribing Tolkien's dislike of Gaelic to mythological penis-envy.

You and your envy, Eldo. Eru bless you!

[Mirabella]

Tolkien Estate is brutal! Rightly so I suppose, but what difference is there between Mirkwood and a biography? Just fictionalized is all. I'd love to see a film about Tolkien. Actually, I wanna see a Doctor Who episode with him in it first, but that's a whole nother story.

What a great idea, Tin!

[Pettytyrant101]

That is a cool idea Tin- Tolkien and Lewis go into a magic blue box!

[azriel]

And Lewis gets the Narnia idea