Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Pettytyrant101]

I see the farce and cover up over the enquiry into child abuse by our ruling classes continues a pace, with the enquiry head stepping down today- thats two for two and for exactly the same reason, they are part of the establishment they are supposed to be investigating.

Surely its about time some serious questions were asked of Teresa May who keeps appointing blatantly inappropriate people to head it.

[azriel]

Wouldnt be surprised if she darn well knows these people are wrong for the job & its all done deliberately

[Pettytyrant101]

For someone with ambitions on the highest office in the land she is going about it in a strange way.
Who will have confidence in a minister who cant even appoint an enquiry head into a hugely serious matter without screwing it up so badly twice in a row and such a suspicious manner?

[Pettytyrant101]

The more I read the worse this all looks-

'a letter from Mrs Woolf about her links with Lord Brittan was re-written seven times until the final version gave a "sense of greater detachment".
Asked about whether redrafting the letter with the help of the Home Office undermined how impartial she appeared, she said: "It does look like that."- BBC


Unbelievable.

[azriel]

Wot the fook ? This country is run by gratuitous idiots isnt it ?

[Pettytyrant101]

It means the Home Office and therefore Teresa May knew about her close links to those she was investigating from the get go- helped her draft a letter 7 times to distance herself from them, and then presented that letter, which they knew was untrue, to a parliamentary Committee investigating her role.

It stinks to high heaven. May picked yet another establishment insider to investigate their own and then tried to cover up the fact she was friends with the people under investigation.

She has to go surely?

[Pettytyrant101]

Well this a stroke of genius.
The enquiry set up to look into whether there was a cover up at the Home Office over the missing child abuse dossiers has declared it can find no evidence of a cover up because all the files are missing or have been destroyed by the Home Office!

"It is, therefore, not possible to say whether files were ever removed or destroyed to cover up or hide allegations of organised or systematic child abuse by particular individuals because of the systems then in place," the report said.

But according to 'call me Dave' this means - 'people "looking for conspiracy theories" would "have to look elsewhere". '

Why because you covered this one up so well?! Unbelievable.

[Eldorion]

I wish I could say this is unbelievable, but it's not.

[azriel]

Its a basic human trait,that is, to lie. You can go back in history as far as you can & there are 100s if not 1000s of lies, cover ups, conspiracies, its relentless. The bigger the lie, the bigger the cover up. And whoever responsible ( for there is always ONE ) can spiral things to such a extent that this itself is confusing & harder to delve deeper into. There's to many things that are unresolved. And that, in my mind, stems back to its original source.....Greed.
Greed for power, or wealth, or fame or what the fook it is you lust for.

[David H]

I had a cousin who was shot by a GTA player who melted down. Though I admire it technically, I always have wondered about things like this. What do the gamers here think?

Moscow (AFP) - Russia has been hunting a mysterious gang that has terrorised Moscow motorists in recent months with a series of murders resembling the violent video game Grand Theft Auto.

The gang -- swiftly dubbed the GTA gang by Russian media after the video game that involves scoring points for murders -- is believed to have killed some 15 people.

In the dead of night, the gang members placed metal spikes on roads just outside Moscow to burst the tyres of passing cars, then ruthlessly gunned down their drivers and disappeared.

Among their victims were a policeman, a senior banker, and even a former dancer from a famous folk dancing troupe.

In a sign of how seriously the crimes are being treated, the police have teamed up with the FSB security agency, the successor to the KGB, to tackle the murders and President Vladimir Putin has gotten personally involved.

"Essentially, this crime is terrorist by nature," Putin told Interior Minister Vladimir Kolokoltsev late last week.

"I know you are working together with the security services, with the FSB. I hope you will see this through."


After refusing to comment for days, the Investigative Committee, which reports directly to Putin, broke its silence on Wednesday, saying it had already arrested the first suspects.

One of the gang leaders put up armed resistance and was killed, the Investigative Committee said in a statement, referring to the gang as the "so-called GTA."

"Investigators established that when killing people, gang members were guided only by motives of profit, stealing their victims' money," it said.

Investigators said that "the hypothesis that members of the gang were mimicking the GTA computer game has not been proven."

[Pettytyrant101]

Better pour yourself a few buckies Im afraid!

Well I am not convinced by that report that there is any link proved there. What they describe the gang as doing they could have gotten from a thousand films.
However for the sake of argument lets just assume they are basing their actions off playing GTA5.

First I have played every GTA game on the main platforms since the series began and was a top down view (and in which you could get bonus points for running down a whole row of chanting Harri-Krishna) but I have not played GTA5 (its not out on pc till the end of this year, although I have played a short amount of time on my brothers playstation, it seemed the usual GTA mix of elements).

The GTA games are nearly all set in an alternate version of America, so you have Liberty City instead of New York, with all the same landmarks but with satirical changes - its version of the Statue of Liberty holds a cup from the games version of Starbucks, Hollywood is remained Vinewood.

History of Liberty City from GTA4 (you should enjoy this one Halfy None of the vids here will be safe for work just to warn you! )




The game play is several things, they are usually extremely violent, expansive, a mix of mission based and free-roaming game play where you make your own fun, sometimes in violent ways but not always, side games which vary game to game; playing golf, pool, swimming, car and bike races, parachuting, flying planes and helicopters ect and lastly they are heavily story led through preset missions.

And that last one is important because the GTA stories are unashamedly movie based.
GTA Vice City (Miami) is set in the 1980's and is a up front parody of Scarface mixed with Miami Vice and the Godfather).
The series is an absurd parody of every big action movie ever made, then heightened and exaggerated and mixed with a hefty dash of Wiley Coyote.

So whilst it is entirely possible if you wish in-game to slow drive a prostitute on the street, pick her up, take her to a car park, have sex with her, pay her, let her get out the car, follow her out and bash her head in with a bat and take all your money back in a tabloid baiting manner.
Its equally also possible to get in a jetpack and fly about the skies trying to see if you can land on the wing of a passing passenger jet and plant a sticky bomb whilst the army try to shoot you down with fighter jest and helicopters while shouting humorous satirical comments at you through megaphones.
Its violent but it covers the whole scale of violence from the realistic and gritty to Warner Bros cartoon.

The environment is a sandbox to play in, outside of the missions how you play is up to you.

And the last thing about them is context.
I said they were a parody of action films, but that just of the action stuff, the core of the environment is a satire of American society in particular, and Western society in more general, with side digs at other nations along the way and the violence in the game is a part of that satire.



For me on that level they are as valuable as Yes, Minister, The Thick of it or Veep, in that they often prompt indignation through offense, but to make an accurate satirical point.
And that is a very old and noble tradition in the UK going back to the very first newspaper cartoons of the 1800's (the games are British in concept, Scottish in fact Rockstar are based out of Dundee and run by two Scottish brothers who also write them).

So as pieces of artistic creation I would argue they have merit and value as much as any other form of art which makes its point through offending or shocking or pointing out absurdities in societies norms by offending its sensibilities.
And like all the other arts before them when people do bad things they get the blame.

Republican Space Rangers a TV show from GTA4



Weazel News


Princess Robot Bubble Gum


Clockwork Orange the film sparked a minor series of copycat gang attacks where gangs dressed like Alex and Co of the film aroused a major series of tabloid hysteria, and Kubrick himself banned the film from the UK- it remained banned for about 25 years (the first time I saw it was on a pirated tape bought from a shady part of a Glasgow market, so I had the extra thrill of not only watching an X rated film aged about 14, but also an illegal film).
Before Kubrick there was Lady Chatterley's Lover which went to court over whether it broke obscenity laws.
And you can keep going back, before printing there were paintings to blame, before that religion.

The problem for me stems from the rather arbitrary way society decides what is or is not moral, or right. And what the process behind that decision making is in our societies history.

We are all a few mouse clicks away from hardcore pornography, but in the UK at least if you put that same material up on public display, even for over 18's you will still fall foul of obscenity laws.
Society has an odd thing going on, where we often make laws against things that seem inherent in our nature, but for whatever reason current society has decided is in some fashion unwanted. So we make laws to ban certain aspects as a sort of forced ideal, whilst at the same time I reckon we could all guess which, between how many clicks pages on art get a day and how many clicks pages with pornography gets a day, who the winner would be.
Banning stuff very rarely works if there is something about the thing being banned which is an inevitable reflection of being human.

Sex or violence, humour or pain, pleasure and death. You cant succeed banning alcohol or drugs because our bodies react to them in ways we both like and that can be addictive, you cant ban pornography because almost everyone likes sex, otherwise we wouldn't all be here to like it. You can't ban films, books or games for stimulating the very things in us that make us human beings. Good and bad. Its an impossible task that always fails. Look at the vast expense wasted n the War in Drugs campaigns world wide- the end result people who want to take drugs can get them and take them.
I not only think there is not an argument for banning games like GTA for content, I think its impossible to do so in a meaningful manner.

Banning games for violent content is no different than the argument that gone on in art since the beginning.

Does art affect people? Does TV? Cinema? Books?

Of course they bloody do, that's why we make them, thats why we consume them. They are a reflection of the collective society we live in.
Does playing violent video games make you more violent? Maybe in the very short time, whilst playing, in the sense that your body will react, heart rate increases, succeeding in what your trying to do whether its the jet pack landing on a wing or bashing in someones head will still release the endorphins in your brain. A lot of the things that would happen if you were really doing stuff happens.

But people get exactly the same way watching a football match, playing a one armed bandit, watching TV or a film.
And like those things for the vast majority when the film ends or you switch the game off its all over and back to normal.
There will always be a tiny minority however who don't, and who because of a predisposition, or mental health issues, will cause harm.
I don't see how that's avoidable without banning everything.

Although it would help a shit load in my opinion if governments round the world took treating mental health seriously rather than just trying to ban things that in some way challenge societies double think about itself.

[Mrs Figg]

there are laws in place in the UK which say if you have diagnosed mental health problems which involve violence, you dont get to have a gun licence, or there should be. Same with cars, if you have a history of drunk driving you get the licence taken off you. Should the same apply to violent video games? should vulnerable people with a history of violent tendencies be allowed to watch them? it could warp already fragile minds. I say there should be more responsibility towards children and sick people to protect them from harm. Its not nannying, its just common sense. They put warnings and ratings on films.

[Pettytyrant101]

Games are rated the same films in the UK and I think a similar system is in place in the US.
Australia is notorious for banning games out of the western countries. And there are problems in Germany with games set in the Second World War because of laws about displays of Nazi stuff.
But I cant think of anywhere that restricts games on the basis mental competence.
It would have to be something sort of prescribed rather than legally enforced. As you couldnt just ban a person from all types of games- and then you get into all sorts of grey areas about whats is and is not violence- Texas Chainsaw Massacre has a lot of violence in it, but so to does Tom and Jerry.

[David H]

I don't disagree with your points in general, but I think I'd probably be equally sensitive about Clockwork Orange if I'd had kin attacked by the copycats. I can't watch Reservoir Dogs after a copycat incident here either. I'm not saying, "ban them all" anymore than I'm saying ban guns or duct tape, but it still touches a nerve with me, and the Big Bad Serious seemed the place to share.

[Pettytyrant101]

I just think its something for which there is not really an answer as it seems to be a part of the wider cultural element of humans, whatever the culture they all tend to share something similar, they are feeding of art thats basically human fears and desires.
So you can go as far back in recorded history as you can and still find the same concepts expressed in the culture- sex and violence being prominent. And both can be expressed as a blessing or a curse depending on whose societies art your looking at.
I dont see it changing anytime soon.
I think better mental health treatment would help, same as I think that reducing poverty, supporting families with children and improving education would help.
But I think you can only reduce the percentage of people who might turn to violent crime, or to violence for pleasure by any means, the law or treatment, and that it will always exist as a consequence of us being humans. And it will always be reflected back in our art and culture.

[Mrs Figg]

its like warning people with epilepsy not to look at flashing lights, watching some things just sets people on a destructive cycle.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yes but strobe lights are a definitive thing, there is not much of a grey area.
Deciding what might set of who and who can see or do what would be a nightmare of greyness.

[leelee]

What is the purpose of these movies, such a low bar it hits. The filthy ungracious language. IT is odious and repulsive. Who does it purport to be for yuck. Anyone can be gross, but why aspire to it?

[Eldorion]

Why should art not tackle a wide variety of subjects and themes, including potentially unpleasant ones?

[Pettytyrant101]

More revelations from the UK pedo scandal-

'Police are investigating "possible homicide" linked to what has been described as a paedophile ring involving powerful people in the 1970s and 1980s.
The group is alleged to have included senior figures in public life, the military, politics and law enforcement.
A key witness who has spoken to police has told the BBC that he was abused for nine years as a boy.
Nick, now in his 40s, says that he was first abused by his own father before being "handed over" as a young boy to the group.
"They were very powerful people and they controlled my life for the next nine years," Nick added.
"They created fear that penetrated every part of me, day in day out. You didn't question what they wanted, you did as they asked without question and the punishments were very severe."
Nick said the group was "very organised" and would arrange for chauffeur-driven cars to pick up boys, sometimes from school, and drive them to "parties" or "sessions" at locations including hotels and private apartments in London and other cities.
"They had no hesitation in doing what they wanted to do," Nick said. "Some of them were quite open about who they were. They had no fear at all of being caught, it didn't cross their mind."
When a child "stepped out of line", he said that abusers would inflict brutal and painful punishments.
"We weren't smuggled in under a blanket through the back door. It was done openly and people must have questioned that and they need to come forward." - BBC

[azriel]

Im not surprised by this. Ive always said theres more that goes on behind closed doors than you realize. This so called high ranking mob are the examples of sophisticated, civilized society that we are meant to aspire to ??? kiss my arse ! Same with Royalty. This country is notorious for its decadent, deviant royal families. And we critise the Old Roman Empire for the way it conducted itself !! Its sickening ! This country certainly is the stuff of History books, but, not necessarily as of enchantment. I often think we "commoners" are more decent & have stronger morals & values than this shonky lot ! Half of them or more have been handed titles, wealth, properties, connections on a plate via their ancestors albeit "daddy & mummy"

[David H]

OK then, to merge the two subjects, what would you all think of a first person video game that allowed you to be a British MP and abuse little boys? That would certainly have a strong argument for artistic social commentary. Would it cross any lines, do you think?

[azriel]

It would cross fooking big ones with me Dave,

[Mrs Figg]

I would have been surprised if there hadnt been murders. These are totally ruthless and arrogant people. I bet there will be more to come and from the most unexpected people in society.

[Pettytyrant101]

Would it cross any lines, do you think? - Dave

It would entirely depend on the manner of the approach.
If it depicted explicit sexual acts with children, even in computer graphic form it would already fall foul of existing laws.
If however it did not but found some way to present the material in a manner that was thought provoking or raised awareness or understanding then maybe.

There is for example an excellent award winning indie game in which you play the part of a border guard in a fictional eastern European style country.
A new government has taken over and you are starting your new job on the border gate.
The game consists of checking peoples credentials as they cross the border into your country, passports, papers, their appearance to their photo ect.
Then at the end of the week you get paid. Then presented with a bill. You have to pay rent, food, heating, clothes for your family ect.
Then terrorist attacks happen, then the government slowly but surely starts to get more and more authoritarian. Further in you get the more and more dubious become your actions.
Do you refuse entry to someone you know is innocent of all crimes, but they are the wrong ethic group and will be shot if you flag them up?
If you dont do it you risk fines, or even losing your job and you cant pay the bills, your family starve, and if you let the wrong people iin you and family might be shot.
The player can find themselves making very immoral decisions in an attempt to keep your family safe and housed and fed.

So yes, in theory I dont believe any subject matter should be ruled out entirely.