Re: Critics review 'Desolation of Smaug' | POSSIBLE SPOILERS

by Radaghast Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:42 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ive been thinking about the morgul arrow that gets Kili in the film. What the buggery is it supposed to be What's it supposed to be doing to Kili?

The only Morgul weapon we have from Tolkien is the Morgul Blade.
And its not for killing with.
Its a magical weapon, any bit that penetrates the body breaks off and begins working its way towards the heart.
In Frodo's case his attempt to stab the Witch-king and putting the Witch-king off his stroke so to speak by invoking Elbereth at him, caused the Witch-King to pierce Frodo's left shoulder. But presumably the idea is to get as close to the heart as possible.

Aragorn describes it to Sam by saying, "..your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will."

In Rivendell Gandalf tells Frodo more explicitly, "You were beginning to fade. The wound was overcoming you at the last....they tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for tying to keep his Ring..."

So the morgul balde specifically wraiths you. And it seems designed to 'remain in the wound' and make for the heart.

So what does a Morgul arrow do?
Following the above it would turn you into a wraith, it would also be designed to break off in the wound (even easier with a naroow) and work its way towards the heart.
So is Kili supposed to be getting wraithed in DOS?

Or is film Frodo not being wraithed and is just poisoned. And so Killi is just poisoned too?

And if it is wraithing and Tauriel can heal it with a bit of old athelas, does that not make Aragorns claim to be the King with Healing Hands a bit of a joke when any old elf can cure an ailment he cant even identify or cure with freshly picked athelas?

Short answer: PJ sucks Very Happy

Honestly, "Morgulized" arrows is just one of a long line of stupid ideas and a rather obvious MacGuffin for the sake of a pointless plot line.

by **Orwell** Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:49 pm

Saw it. Don't know where to begin. And can't be bothered.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:53 pm

Go to the purist edit thread Orwell and console yourself a little at least with the Smaug convo, book based purist version Nod

by **Orwell** Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:01 pm

I haven't the heart. I'm beginning to understand how Frodo felt. The Ring sickness was such that he could not stay in Middle Earth. I'm imagining the Music of the Ainur now. PJ is there playing a tin whistle, badly. (I have nothing against humble and competent tin whistle blowers, btw). I actually, kept having moments of gut wretching anger through the movie. What a wasted opportunity. He's wasted oportunities before -- but this is truly his greatest desecration.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:02 pm

but this is truly his greatest desecration.- PJ

It is indeed a tour de force of everything Pj has brought to Tolkien thats for sure. Evil or Very Mad

by Eldorion Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:07 pm

Orwell wrote:this is truly his greatest desecration.

Just you wait for TABA. Nod

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:15 pm

The mind truly boggles now at what he might do to TABA. Crying or Very sad

I would say so far he has not committed any new sins, but he has taken all the things that were bad and wrong about his LotR's films and filled the entire film with them so that there is no room at all for anything else. And as a result DOS is even worse than the worst moments of LotR's, as adaptations, as films, in aesthetics, all the way from start to finish.

by Mrs Figg Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:16 pm

DOS makes AUJ look good.

by **Orwell** Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:34 pm

It may seem queer, but I found aspects of the Tauriel thing tolerable - except for the dwarf-elf thing... which I guess doesn't leave much. I probably have a craving to see a proper elf-maiden shield-maiden thing.. But don't listen to me.. I think I'm traumatized! Sad

My greatest concerns are not even the lack of The Hobbit in it. It's the total lack of tension, suspense, the lack of character development, the ridiculization of Smaug, the sheer failure of the power to suspend disbelief... It really is a failure as a movie on so many grounds. But the potential was there. With a decent Director it could have been great - like all the movies could have been. The technical know how was there - and the sets and CGI (to a point) were there. It is clearly pearls thrown before swine. (I mean, pearls replaced with trash and then poured - for good measure - down the throats of the gullible masses).

More of the same, Petty? More excessively the same! It really is an abomination on so many levels. Thank Eru I have a more realistic, tense, exciting, romantic story to read at the moment . Eru bless Ol' Anon. I will never doubt him regards the level of respect he has for for all things Tolkien again. PJ beats him easily.

by Tinuviel Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:35 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ive been thinking about the morgul arrow that gets Kili in the film. What the buggery is it supposed to be What's it supposed to be doing to Kili?

The only Morgul weapon we have from Tolkien is the Morgul Blade.
And its not for killing with.
Its a magical weapon, any bit that penetrates the body breaks off and begins working its way towards the heart.
In Frodo's case his attempt to stab the Witch-king and putting the Witch-king off his stroke so to speak by invoking Elbereth at him, caused the Witch-King to pierce Frodo's left shoulder. But presumably the idea is to get as close to the heart as possible.

Aragorn describes it to Sam by saying, "..your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will."

In Rivendell Gandalf tells Frodo more explicitly, "You were beginning to fade. The wound was overcoming you at the last....they tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for tying to keep his Ring..."

So the morgul balde specifically wraiths you. And it seems designed to 'remain in the wound' and make for the heart.

So what does a Morgul arrow do?
Following the above it would turn you into a wraith, it would also be designed to break off in the wound (even easier with a naroow) and work its way towards the heart.
So is Kili supposed to be getting wraithed in DOS?

Or is film Frodo not being wraithed and is just poisoned. And so Killi is just poisoned too?

And if it is wraithing and Tauriel can heal it with a bit of old athelas, does that not make Aragorns claim to be the King with Healing Hands a bit of a joke when any old elf can cure an ailment he cant even identify or cure with freshly picked athelas?

Didn't they think that Faramir was hit by a Morgul arrow at first? Then it just turned out to be poisoned? I don't have a copy of ROTK on me, but I thought that the healers thought he was poisoned by the Nazgul at first?

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:38 pm

He is poisoned by the Nazgul in the book Tin, Aragorn heals him in the Houses of Healing with athelas having revealed himself as King on the battlefield he fufills the prophesy of being the Healer- but its the Black Breath he removes from Faramir and Eowyn I believe which seem to be the the greater threat to them than the physical wounds. So I dont think is a morgul dart that gets him, just a poisoned one.

by Radaghast Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:40 pm

Tinuviel wrote:Didn't they think that Faramir was hit by a Morgul arrow at first? Then it just turned out to be poisoned? I don't have a copy of ROTK on me, but I thought that the healers thought he was poisoned by the Nazgul at first?

Good point.

by Radaghast Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:41 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:He is poisoned by the Nazgul in the book Tin, Aragorn heals him in the Houses of Healing with athelas having revealed himself as King on the battlefield he fufills the prophesy of being the Healer- but its the Black Breath he removes from Faramir and Eowyn I believe which seem to be the the greater threat to them than the physical wounds. So I dont think is a morgul dart that gets him, just a poisoned one.

What exactly is the Black Breath and how did the Nazgûl inflict Faramir with it?

by halfwise Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:43 pm

Faramir and others were under the influence of the Black Breath - which Tolkien never went into much detail about. Not morgul blades, but similar symptoms: cold, numbness.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:44 pm

Tolklien isnt explicit about it but its seems to be a darkness that seeps into your mind and you wander in some sort of Sauron inspired unpleasant dark place, eventually you are just gone I assume and I suppose the body dies.

Like the Nazgul scream it seems to grow in potency as Sauron does- so the first Black Breath incident is Merry in the streets of Bree, and he only passes out.
Close enough proximity to the Nazgul seems to be all thats required.

by Radaghast Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:49 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Close enough proximity to the Nazgul seems to be all thats required.

Presumably, this is when the Ring-wraiths are close to Mordor, since there was no similar effect on anyone from the Wraiths in the western part of Middle-earth (except on Frodo from the Morgul knife, of course).

by Bluebottle Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:52 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:DOS makes AUJ look good.

That's certainly some accomplishment. Shocked

by azriel Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:00 am

New "Oral-B with even greater protection against plaque & Ringwraiths, 9 out of 10 dentists in Mordor recommend it !"

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:02 am

by Radaghast Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:03 am

With new minty athelas flavor!

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:06 am

this is when the Ring-wraiths are close to Mordor, since there was no similar effect on anyone from the Wraiths in the western part of Middle-earth- Rhaddy

Merry is the furthest west I can think of, and it just seems to knock him out as he he is on the ground when Nob finds him.
So I think its two factors- proximity to Mordor and that by the time they are using the Breath to cause serious harm such as on Faramir, Sauron seems to have reconstituted his spirit to be pretty close to being as mighty as he can be without the Ring back- which is still pretty damn formidable and their power has grown with his.

by Radaghast Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:08 am

Yeah, their power is apparently being augmented by Sauron.

by RA Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:15 am

Mrs Figg wrote:DOS makes AUJ look good.

I don't know if that's even possible; to make AUJ look good that is.

by Radaghast Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:16 am

It makes it look less bad which, compared to DoS, is good, I guess Neutral

by RA Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:17 am

Bluebottle wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:DOS makes AUJ look good.

That's certainly some accomplishment.

It certainly would be Laughing