Things that are making you crabbit! [4]

I agree about the selective few who seem to be allowed access just because they say who they think they are or should be. These Henges belong to everyone I think & yes, you bloody well should pay respect ! Dance & sing if you want to but do it near not in the Henge.People will say what they want to about themselves if enough follow & there is no one to put the brakes on it.

we have no idea what stone Henges were for and theres no way we can understand what was going on in their minds when they used them. its best to leave them well alone imo. theres a reason we have a folk memory about stones. its because deep down we know its not a place for us.

They were humans, we are humans, I think we can understand some of what was going on in their minds.
A henge creates a perfect level ground 360 degrees around you, this is perfect for taking measurements of celestial events over periods of time (there is also some evidence that henges were sometimes flooded, as they form a shallow bowl they would become still and perfectly reflect the night sky).
The Circle itself provides further means of measurement, allowing the noticing of repeating patterns at particular times of the year.
This allows for the first time the accurate predicting of eclipses, seasons, when to plant and when to harvest.
The usefulness of this to early agriculturists is not hard to see.

We cant know in what manner they understood this information- whether they realised it on a purely technical basis or really did believe that the information was being conveyed from the dead via the stones, nor can we know what rituals or otherwise they performed.

But we can know what practical uses the Circles served and that that function was an integral part of what they did.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The discovers made in Scotland in the last five years or so are completely altering our understanding of this period and what was going on.

A very good place to start is with the Ness of Brodgar. Its the star prize in British archaeology right now and is turning up stuff never seen before from that period in Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ness_of_Brodgar

Just wanted to say that this is fascinating. I've read a little bit about the Neolithic ruins in Orkney before and it blows my mind that structures of that level of scale and complexity were being built of stone that long ago, and so far from the generally accepted centers of early urban civilization. Really drives home how much we still have to learn about prehistory.

Eldo - that was my opinion of the pre-Incan ruins I saw in South America. Some of the temples were so elaborate that you wonder how they could have done it without modern techniques.

Even the stonework in Cusco and Machu Pichu which is only 400-500 years old is unbelievable.

Petty I am pretty sure (but not certain) some of the early stones were pre-agriculture, so what then were they used for if it wasn't for planting and growing stuff? if the people were still hunter/gatherers why would they need to look at the heavens. I think there is just speculation about these things, we don't actually know. It might be a use that modern humans just couldn't understand. I don't think a lot of modern humans can understand Australian aboriginal culture let alone people who lived 20,000 years ago.

Lancebloke wrote:Eldo - that was my opinion of the pre-Incan ruins I saw in South America. Some of the temples were so elaborate that you wonder how they could have done it without modern techniques.

Even the stonework in Cusco and Machu Pichu which is only 400-500 years old is unbelievable.

And you cant blame people when they come up with theories that Aliens crafted some of the things we see today, for that very fact, that some stuff is so intricate or beautiful etc to be produced by 'Man' with his limited tools. Many argue also that Man in his early years carved or drew the things he saw around him, thats why in some parts of the world theres carvings that look like Astronauts, how come ? Is there more than we can understand ?

Petty I am pretty sure (but not certain) some of the early stones were pre-agriculture- Figg

Not that I am aware of.
The earliest circles in the UK date from the late Neolithic and continue into and through the early Bronze Age (about 4000-2000bc) about 500-1000 years after agriculture appeared here- circles and crops go together. They are the first computer used for calculating future events- imagine the power that must have seemed, humans had done the seemingly impossible- for the first time ever we could predict with 100% certainty when something was going to happen well before it occurred!
We are so used to the idea- now we do loads of things based on just such predictions- electronic firms prepare for the 12 year solar cycle to minimize loss of signals, we are told months beforehand when to expect an eclipse, or a meteor shower to pass by, or the return of a comet. We send probes into space based on where we know bodies in our system will be in the future rather than the present.
But back then it was brand new and revolutionary.


Azriel- there are loads of those sort of ideas- some thanks to writers like Von Daniken, but his research has been proved to be sloppy to say the least- but there are interesting creation tales that can be interpreted to imply that human knowledge does ot come from earth (thinking in particular here of the Anuuki of Summeria or the white, bearded Gods of South America, or the Dogon tribe.

Somewhere in the Bible it says there is nothing new under the sun, so even thousands of years ago people were looking into the past and realized other folks had the same thoughts long before them.

I think many technological 'inventions' were invented many times before the proper refinement with the proper time and place came together to help it take off. The Greeks had a railroad coming out of one of their mines, and they had miniature steam engines; they just hadn't put it all together.

None of this is making me crabbit...

they may have used the stones like a computer, but I am not so sure it was to predict future events. I think it was used to control the weather in the present. I think they would use the stones on a daily and local need basis. bit like the emergency services. If they were at all like us, and considering modern humans don't give a shit whats happening 50 miles away from us as long as where we are is hunky dory.

No Halfy, its far to interesting

I'm not sure what you mean by 'control the weather'. We cant do that now.

I dont see why they would not be in use all year round, they work all year round, indeed there would need to be someone for the first two generations at least for the movements of the stars between stones to be followed long enough to start noticing the cyclic behaviour. Someone would have to be there all the time to make those observations.

Also the evidence form the Ness is that there were permanent residences on these sites.
And we have Skara Brae- they have found a lot of animal bones there from food, but never a whole animal- so you get lots of cattlle rib bones, bt no vertebrae, no skulls, no hip bones.
The implication of this is that the people who lived there were being provided with cuts of meat, the people were providing them with what they needed so they could do whatever it was they were doing, that was so important to the general people that the folk of Skara Brae did not have to even provide for themselves (and got to live in a stone built village, complete with stone dressers, stone beds, stone cupboards, living rooms, underfloor heating and indoor plumbing- all in 3000bc! whn ancient Egypt was still trying to work out how to build a mastaba)
Skara Brae and the Ness as well as being close to each other are contemporaries, so its not a stretch to think that its quite possible the seemingly more important Temple complex also had people there year round who maintained it and performed whatever rituals they had and who were likewise provided for by the people.

But for me the most pressing evidence that the circles are basically practical technology is that the spread like technology.
They start out in the north of Europe during the Late Neolithic-  about 4000bc onwards, by 2000bc they have passed through England at many sites, Stone Henge the most prominent and are all over continental Europe, by the late bronze age they are turning up in Iran and other areas of the Middle East.
Now there seems to be no correlation between the circles in each of these places and the religion- there doesn't seem to be a religion that goes with the stones- that fits technology, you can slot them into the local religion easy enough and they still provide the same astronomical information. After all it doesn't matter if you a farmer in Iran who worships the local state city God or a farmer in Orkney worshipping the local spirits of the hills, they both can make use of knowing when to plant and when to harvest.

Another great thing about them is they are self building, all you need is somewhere with a view to observe where the sun is rising and setting over a period of time, a large stake, and a length of rope and you are ready to go. The measurements you are making will tell you where to place the stones (this version is from a education pack for primary schools, it uses a compass to find north, but with a bit of observation this can be done with the same tools as for building your circle, a stick and a bit of string- you just have to observe and measure out the shadow as it falls from the stick)

1. Anchor a reference stake at the center point of the circle and place the compass on top of it.

2. Determine due north and place a marker at 50 feet north of the center.

3. Repeat the process for east, west, and south. (The rope is used as a guide to insure that all markers are equidistant from the center stake.)

4. Again, using the rope as a guide, place a small marker stone every few feet around the perimeter of the circle.

5. The center of the circle now becomes the fixed reference point and the westward facing perimeter is where you will be placing the sunset markers.

6. The calendar can be started at any time, but the solstice sunsets are the most fun. (The Northern Hemisphere is the reference for the following dates. The summer solstice, which happens on June 21 or 22 each year, has the longest daylight time. It is also the first day of summer. The winter solstice, on December 21 or 22, has the shortest, and officially kicks off winter. The autumn equinox occurs on September 21 or 22; the spring equinox occurs on March 20 or 21.)

7. Mark the point of sunset with a pole, stake, or other (not easily moved) marker.

8. Tag the marker with the date of sunset.

9. Repeat the process every seven days. Over the weeks and months note that the sun appears to "walk" faster at some times of the year than others (you can do this over the course of the school year).

10. When you have finished you will have a working astronomical calendar.

Another reason to assume they are technology is that the shape of the circle changes with latitude, they are rounder and more true circles in the north and flatter towards the equator, this is because they self regulate in the building as you use the sun to mark the position of the stones- this means you can easily transport the technology and it will always be accurate and the right shape just by following the same set up rules no matter where you are on the planet surface and they only take a year to build (assuming your not going nuts and making a huge one out of massive stones- I suspect most farmers had a personal computer version in their local community made of wooden stakes which are now long since gone)- they are works of genius in every way.

Not sure how you can say the circles don't go with religion unless you know something about the religion.

As far as controlling the weather goes: it's only the impression that counts. As any native american will tell you, if you dance long enough, eventually it will rain.

Not disputing the idea that these were agricultural/astronomical calculators, but there was a deeper significance or they would have just built the damn things out of poles.

Not sure how you can say the circles don't go with religion unless you know something about the religion.- Halfy

Because we know quite a lot about the religion in the Middle east during this time thanks to them inventing writing and clay tablets. And we know some of the religious ideas that seem to have been prevalent in northern Europe, and they dont seem to share much in common, but they do share stone circles.

'but there was a deeper significance or they would have just built the damn things out of poles'

Ha you beat me too it! I just made an edit to the above post about this- saying I reckon most farming communities would have their own circle made from wood- these would have course not have survived the intervening 2000 years as evidence. But there are nevertheless many examples of sites where the pole holes have been found.
The big stone circles are set pieces, almost certainly ritualistic grand gestures- the wooden make your own with a stick and length rope variety were probably, especially towards the heyday of the circles, the more common sort.
And of course its the stone ones which survive, making us think for along time they were only made of stone.
But in fact it all started with wood- wood henges came before stone ones.

Well, the middle east didn't have stone circles and northern Europe did, which btw didn't have writing. I still don't think we know much about the religion of the time in northern Europe, but those circles bear the marks of mystical technology...otherwise they'd be in town where anybody can use them. I think they're a blend of technology and religion, much like the Incans and Aztecs had these crazy reliable calendars linked to astronomy, but it was tangled in the religious cults of the time.

The Middle east does have stone circles that's my point, and whilst Europe had no written language they did have art, sculpture and we have the written account of the last days of the old religions when writing finally did arrive (ther eis also ogham and its variants and we still dont know if cupmarks, spirals and lozenges are purely artistic or if they convey information). But tnough to see that they don't seem to share a root belief system, yet the technology spread as far as Iran and Iraq.
There may even be biblical references to them making one-

"So the Israelites did as Joshua commanded them. They took twelve stones from the middle of the Jordan, according to the number of the tribes of the Israelites, as the LORD had told Joshua; and they carried them over with them to their camp, where they put them down. Joshua set up the twelve stones that had been in the middle of the Jordan at the spot where the priests who carried the ark of the covenant had stood. And they are there to this day."

Also the book of Enoch may be an actual account rather than a flight of fancy as often interpreted. He account son his journey a surprisingly precise account of the rising and setting of the sun- so much so its possible to work out roughly what latitude he must be on the planet, combined with his physical descriptions it would place him about the same latitude as northern Scotland.
Enoch goes on to describe how the Watchers take him to a place with a chamber and a wall of fire- Maes Howe is a chambered cairn connected to Venus and rebirth as well as the solstice, it has a wall of quartz which was lit on the right day by a beam of sunlight that penetrated the chamber, a device called a 'lightbox' a stone placed into the doorway is also aligned so that Venus on the right day will light up the inner chamber- which in a dark night would be some sight.
Enoch is then taken to a another space where he is shown a comet passing between particular gates and portals- this may may refer to observations being made in different spaces between particular stones.
He is then instructed about the perceived threat from the comet to his homeland in the middle east and is taught how to build his own observation space to watch it.

For myself I think it started out as the work of a genius, or a group of geniuses, quickly got consumed by the ruling class of the day, priests to whoever,, clothed in religion, but the usefulness of it still got out- to start with the religion went with it, at least it England and northern europe- but the further south the idea went the less the original religion had to do with it and the more incorporated it got into the local traditions. But it was the practical usefulness of the things that was driving it, whatever religion it found itself cloaked in.

The big set piece circles I tend to think of lie showrooms, but with more religion. As to why they built those, its a bit like asking why did America put those big faces on Mt Rushmore? For the same reason Pharaohs built Pyramids when a mastaba served the same purpose in a simpler more effective manner. They are statement, a defiance of time, which is why they are made of stone. They are a two fingered salute to mortality. You will remember us.

I still think that the circles had nothing to do with religion as we think of it or star gazing/agriculture in particular. I think a lot of it is 20th century romanticism. We want to believe those peoples were doing exotic shamanistic rituals with hoppy skippy dancing round stones but I don't think the stones were anything more than places where people congregated to sort stuff out, practical stuff. those people didn't have time to contemplate their navels, they spent all their time trying to survive from hand to mouth, not get killed by starvation or disease. their time would have been spent waking up and trying to find food, or making implements, or rearing children, or fighting, or warding off attackers. If something bad happened they would go to the stones for guidance. They would ask for help, practical help, maybe the leader would dole out the laws or punishments, or discussions about the best way to organise their tribe. I don't think they saw themselves as separate from the stones but they were joined like totems, the stones felt their pain, gave comfort or what have you. I think the stones were like sticking plasters.

The evidence doesn't support that as their main function- if they are just meeting places why bother aligning them to solstices? Why the need to so carefully measure out the circle according to rising suns- that takes a year of all round observation to accomplish.
One being aligned would be chance, maybe two or three, but all of them?

And you cant take the circles in isolation to the evidence we have of those who built them- it would have taken time, effort, especially the entire complex at the Ness which has two major circles,  a major chambered cairn and the temple complex itself in the middle. All aligned to astronomical events. And that's just what we've found.

This would have to have been a community effort- one only possible because of agriculture freeing up labour time and being able to provide more food per person per farmer.
It also seems odd that the circles don't appear until several centuries after the arrival of agriculture.
It seems to me that they are probably closely linked given the very astronomical information they give is particularly pertinent to farming.
It was probably on a wave of whatever new religion came with agriculture- gods of the fields and pastures ect rather than of the woods and rivers or some such that the circle stuff rode in on.

That's not to say that I don't think they could very well have been multifunctional- I think that's highly likely- just as a Church may serve Christenings, baptisms, weddings funerals, dances, harvest celebrations, and jumble sales.

I tend to think of circles like pc's- a pc is a machine designed to do calculations very quickly- that's what it does.
However what use you put that to- posting on a forum, watching a youtube video, creating an animation, writing a story- that's a different matter, but no matter the use, the device is still built to do the same thing.
Circles are astronomical calendars- that's what they are designed to do- but how people used them, thought about them, interacted with them, well that's down to how imaginative people can get, and humans, especially around this sort of stuff, can be very imaginative indeed (when the first church was built I doubt its architect had considered the jumble sale!).

I think they had considered the jumble sale. In the medieval period churches were used to house animals, they were brightly coloured noisy smelly places, not our hushed 21st century monochrome hallowed halls. I think the jumble sale is actually an ancient tradition going back to the Franciscan monks or before.

I think the primary thing about ancient European society is how little we know. We know the Ancient Greeks were quite technologically advanced, but that is just because some divers stumbled on some shipwreck.

Women in shopping queues are making me crabbit!!
Why are they never prepared when they get to the till? Ten minutes I was in that queue and what does the woman in front of me do when it comes time to pay? She start rummaging about in her shopping bag for a her purse, then proceeds to rummage through her purse for her card- why didn't she have it in her hand ready? We'd been stuck in the bloody queue for long enough
I had what I was buying in one hand and what I need to pay for it in the other ready to go.
Be prepared women!!!!!! (Especially if you are in a lengthy queue with a crabbit bastard standing behind you!)

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Women in shopping queues are making me crabbit!!
Why are they never prepared when they get to the till? Ten minutes I was in that queue and what does the woman in front of me do when it comes time to pay? She start rummaging about in her shopping bag for a her purse, then proceeds to rummage through her purse for her card- why didn't she have it in her hand ready? We'd been stuck in the bloody queue for long enough
I had what I was buying in one hand and what I need to pay for it in the other ready to go.
Be prepared women!!!!!! (Especially if you are in a lengthy queue with a crabbit bastard standing behind you!)

Reminds me of a bloke who used to get the same bus I did to college, every single day he'd get on the bus (not always bothering to put his arm out), then precede to open his rucksack as late as possible, fart around looking for his wallet (not sure why you wouldn't remove your wallet first) for what seemed like hours, finally removing his half crumpled bus ticket...the weirdest thing was the guy was always wearing a suit (I think he was an office worker), so was clearly reasonably well off, still not entirely sure if he was just weird/thick or trolling the bus company for some reason...

He was probably a delusional office employee that had been sacked in 1972 & still hasnt come to terms with it............ever ! He wears the same suit, rides the same bus probably even has the same flask & sandwiches. Mother packs him off each day with a loving kiss & a cheery wave, then goes back indoors to neck down a bottle of scotch whilst watching Jeremy Kyle. Your little friend probably rides the bus round & round town till 5pm !

azriel wrote:He was probably a delusional office employee that had been sacked in 1972 & still hasnt come to terms with it............ever ! He wears the same suit, rides the same bus probably even has the same flask & sandwiches. Mother packs him off each day with a loving kiss & a cheery wave, then goes back indoors to neck down a bottle of scotch whilst watching Jeremy Kyle. Your little friend probably rides the bus round & round town till 5pm !  

I should point out this guy was like 30-35 years old...

What is it about buses that attracts the weirdoes?