Re: The Desolation of Smaug pre-release thread [2] [SPOILERS]

[bungobaggins]

Don't know if someone has posted this already, but Vlog #12 is up on Jackson's facebook page (couldn't find it on youtube yet):

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151969256876558&set=vb.141884481557&type=2&theater

It looks like the dwarves will have a battle with the spiders, like they do in the book after Bilbo has freed them, but one thing puzzled me a little: Thorin seems to be there, and he is supposed to be captured by the elves by then. And still there is footage of him being interrogated by Thranduil, which suggests that Thorin is captured on his own in the film too

I think that all the dwarves will be captured as a group, and that Thranduil will want to interrogate Thorin at some point, so I don't think Thorin has to be captured separately for that.  

[Norc]

Don't know if someone has posted this already, but Vlog #12 is up on Jackson's facebook page (couldn't find it on youtube yet):

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151969256876558&set=vb.141884481557&type=2&theater

It looks like the dwarves will have a battle with the spiders, like they do in the book after Bilbo has freed them, but one thing puzzled me a little: Thorin seems to be there, and he is supposed to be captured by the elves by then. And still there is footage of him being interrogated by Thranduil, which suggests that Thorin is captured on his own in the film too

no there is footage of the elves leading all the dwarves into thradnuil, but he is interrogated alone perhaps- also, the elves seem to kinda rescue them too.

[Norc]

I'm actually gonna wait until the end credit for the song, so i haven't heard it yet.

[Forest Shepherd]

I'm actually gonna wait until the end credit for the song, so i haven't heard it yet.

Don't expect too much. I can't help but compare it to Emiliana Torrini's vocals for "Gollum's Song" at the end of The Two Towers and find it to be

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to the earlier piece as well as lacking

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"Gollum's Song," which really worked for me as it concluded the middle-piece of the trilogy with this lament for things lost.
And I know that, for the Hobbit Trilogy,

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the three female-vocalists in the LotR Trilogy but I can't get behind Ed Sheeran's

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Apart from the lyrics,

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I found it devoid of any

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Compare this to Torrini's vocals being played over orchestral accompaniment. That arrangement matched the rest of the score for the film. This Hobbit piece is

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I was careful to not spoil anything

[Lancebloke]

I watched the 2 towers last night all the way through the credits for that song. The score for the whole thing is amazing and that includes the closing credits songs.

I really can't remember the song for AUJ... I think I left pretty quickly. Be interesting to see how this one does fit with the end of the film to actually leave you sitting there listening and thinking about what just happened and what will happen next, which is what the songs in all 3 of the LotR films did for me.

[Norc]

as i said, i hated the AUJ end credit song, but when i had seen the movie it sort of fitted and i quite like the song now

[halfwise]

I agree with F.S.'s assessment completely.   The only memorable music we have from the Hobbit so far is Over Misty Mountains Cold.

2 out of 3 of the end songs for LoTR were written by Shore, and Enya is perhaps the most appropriately atmospheric song writer of her generation. I think taking the song writing out of Shore's hands for the Hobbit was a mistake. But since the Hobbit films will not have the emotional resonance of the Lord of the Rings anyway (due to directorial $%#-ups) it doesn't really matter. It's not like there's anything to be ruined by it.

[halfwise]

I really can't remember the song for AUJ... I think I left pretty quickly.

Wasn't much to remember, pretty much in the same style as the song under discussion. No strong emotional impact - very much like the movie itself.

[Mrs Figg]

I watched the 2 towers last night all the way through the credits for that song. The score for the whole thing is amazing and that includes the closing credits songs.

I really can't remember the song for AUJ... I think I left pretty quickly. Be interesting to see how this one does fit with the end of the film to actually leave you sitting there listening and thinking about what just happened and what will happen next, which is what the songs in all 3 of the LotR films did for me.

Yeah the score for TTT is pretty stellar.

I listened to this new one for DOS. Its pleasant and a bit bland, nothing bad about it, just not a song to lift the heart and steal into your imagination. The Annie Lennox song did that, she doesnt have the greatest voice in the world, but they way she sang it made it truly memorable and magical.

[bungobaggins]

I keep seeing people say on torn and here that the song "isn't Middle-earth" or as F.S. says it is "devoid of any Middle-earth elements." What does this mean? Are we referring to musical elements, or what? Story elements? I think it will fit the ending of the second film fairly well.  

I can't say I'm a fan of Gollum's Song.

It took me a few times listening to Song of the Lonely Mountain to warm up to it. I don't like the score for AUJ and I'm sick of Shore; I think he's a hack as well as a fraud (and not in the endearing way that Mike and Jay from redlettermedia are hack frauds), but at least I'm liking the ending songs better. It feels good that I can find something to like again. I feel like... it could be good for my health.  

But I will be judging the DOS score and soundtrack with my most critical ear.

[Mrs Figg]

why do you think he is a hack and a fraud?  everyone loves the music for LOTR generally. I am curious to know why you say that. I have never heard him critisized for being a fraud before, curious to know why. Is it just the music for AUJ that has disillusioned you?

[halfwise]

Yep, don't get the complaints about Howard Shore, and Bungo is the only one I know who doesn't like the Misty Mountains theme (I assume you meant that instead of Lonely Mountain?).

Sorry Bungo, you're all on your own on this one, I'm afraid. I too would like to know why you don't like Howard Shore (base it on the LoTR score though, not the largely forgettable AUJ score).

[Lancebloke]

Bungo - I think the 'middle-earth' elements people talk about is the kind of music that illicits the sort of thoughts and feelings you get when thinking of middle-earth. The same as you would expect with any kind of film.

The music sets the tone as much as you probably don't notice it the first time around, which I think is the key. You tend to notice a soundtrack when something is going wrong. Either the story is poor and you are looking for something else to focus on or the music is wrong and draws your attention because it doesn't fit.

Music for the Elves, for example, should be Ethereal. Music for the sweeping vistas should be grand. For the enemy should be menacing in some way.

Middle-earth for most people would have had it's 'theme' set in LotRs. That world had it's sound.... now, for some, it doesn't.

[bungobaggins]

All on my own, eh? Time to saddle up.



I really feel that the use of the leitmotif in film music has been done to death. From Birth of a Nation to Star Wars to Lord of the Rings. It's falling back on a trusted technique, but to me it's also the death of the advancement of film music. You can write a nice score that sounds great and everybody likes, but it's not really pushing any boundaries.

(You could argue that these movies shouldn't have something like an avant-garde score or something else that would lead to advancement, and that I shouldn't be looking for one here, and you'd be right. But the fact is that these LOTR and TH scores are getting a lot of attention and seem to be the centerpiece of film music for the past ten plus years.)

And it gets old hearing the same melodies over and over and over getting pounded into your skull (and the fact that there's going to be two more movies of this? ugh. Sure there will be new themes for new locations and characters, but I'm sure we'll have those pounded it our heads as well.). By the eagle rescue in AUJ how many times had we heard the Nature's Reclamation theme over the course of LOTR and TH? I don't know the specific number, but the answer for me was "too many times." Same goes for the Ring theme and anything else that had just become overused (Shire music comes to mind).

At the end of AUJ when we hear Azog's motif as he and his warg approach the tree that Thorin is in, my reaction is basically: "O rly? You don't say?" We've heard his theme over and over in its most basic function: whenever Azog is on screen we hear his motif. "Oh, wow, it's Azog. I can see and hear him on the screen, I don't need the motif to remind me. And it's not really being changed in any way except tempo perhaps. What's the point?" That is the most basic function of the leitmotif, and it's the absolute death of film music, for me.

(It reminded me of Birth of a Nation and the leitmotif for the main female lead/love interest. It's a very lovely romantic melody. In one section of the film she is distressed about something and her leitmotif plays all happy and romantic while she is freaking out. It's actually quite funny.)

Sure, you can have all the thematic transformation that you want, but then again it's nothing that Wagner, Liszt, and Richard Strauss hadn't perfected.

That's my rant on why I don't like Howard Shore (or more specifically, why I have gotten sick of these types of film scores). It's going to be an unpopular opinion and I hope you guys can respect that. The End.

[bungobaggins]

Thanks for clearing that up, Lance.  I'm still thinking the song will fit with the attack on Lake-town (especially if the movie ends on a cliffhanger).

[Lancebloke]

What would your approach to the original trilogy have been then?

[halfwise]

It's a valid criticism, Bungo. It might be nice to have a through-composed score that just matches the action without dragging the listener back to old themes.

I'm guessing the leit-motif technique works best on first viewing but perhaps becomes tiresome on repeated viewings. I doubt it will ever leave movie scoring, but at least it should not be too blatant. I kind of appreciate theme and variations, and so long as the variations keep coming I don't get tired of the theme.

[Lancebloke]

I imagine a big issue with the Hobbit films is that they are being moulded in to a LotR prequel and the themes and tones are getting ever closer to those films. 15+ hours of film (after the 6 are done) will probably be feeling quite tiresome if the score is also being done to match.... which we know some of it has.

[bungobaggins]

What would your approach to the original trilogy have been then?

I don't know. That's a tough call to make, especially now that these movies and scores have been so engrained into our brains by now, it's really tough to see them another way or imagine what could have been.  Halfy mentioned a through-composed score without the use of leitmotifs and that's the only thing that I could imagine too. It would have to be orchestral, and you can keep the use of modality and exoticism, and if you want to use some themes sparingly that's fine too. That's all I can think of; I wouldn't go totally left field with a compilation score or electronics or something like that.

[Eldorion]

I don't think every movie needs to have a big orchestral score with leitmotifs and everything -- it would probably ruin a lot of movies if they did -- but I thought that Shore managed to pull if off phenomenally with enough variations on themes to keep the music fresh and interesting.  But I am not a music theorist and I can totally respect your opinion on the soundtrack even if I disagree with it.

Edit: I will say though that I thought the soundtrack for AUJ overused familiar themes too much (Nazgul theme for Azog was a big WTF moment) and didn't do much new or interesting, but I hope that DOS might turn things around.

[Mrs Figg]

I think its more the fault of the person that decides which music goes with which scenes thats at fault, Shore writes the original music, but its over used and used for two films it becomes stale. I can understand the critisism that the LOTR score was used in AUJ because that is just lazyness, but its not Shores fault. He has wrote some beautiful and memorable music for a classic story, it fit perfectly into that world. He fulfilled the brief. I think a leitmotif weaves together the grand scale of LOTR like a tapestry, it would be disjointed and the world of Middle Earth would be less an organic Whole and more palid without this harmony.

[bungobaggins]

I remember listening to the LOTR soundtracks over and over as a kid. It had a huge impact on me. Funny how things can change.  

I hope that DOS presents enough new material that it piques my interest.

Nazgul theme for Azog was a big WTF moment

Fuck that moment. The soundtrack had much better music for that moment, and it wasn't a leitmotif!!

[halfwise]

Yep, the Nazgul theme should not have been re-used. The other old themes (Shire, Rivendell) could have been morphed some more. The biggest problem was that except for the "misty mountains" theme, there were no new memorable themes. I'm not sure they weren't there, we just don't remember them cause they were crap. This IS Shore's fault. I think he just wasn't inspired by what he had in the first film.

[Mrs Figg]

I think they all lacked inspiration this time round, and that includes WETA.

[halfwise]

In Lord of the Rings they could at least get inspiration from the books, but PJ and the coven pulled them so far away from the book it couldn't be used for inspiration anymore.