Religous debates and questions [2]

The non-fashionable way leaves the little yucky end with the black stuff inside the peel. Easy to get rid of.

The "fashionable" way leaves the yucky bit at the top and you have to eat it or pick it away.

I just tried eating a banana starting from the blossom end in the interests of science. When I got 3/4 of the way to the stem, it fell out of the peel onto the floor...  I'm not sure I'm ready for this much change in my life.....

Poor Davy...

I'm the only person I know who peeled bananas the way chimps do- Halfwise

I just tried eating a banana starting from the blossom end in the interests of science. When I got 3/4 of the way to the stem, it fell out of the peel onto the floor- David

Maybe you are going about it wrong David and what Halfy actually meant was he peels them with his feet.

halfwise wrote:I'm the only person I know who peeled bananas the way chimps do before it became fashionable to point out that nearly everyone eats them from the opposite end.  Chimps are experimental and logical; ironically people just tend to ape other people without thinking about it.  I'm very smug about my banana eating.

I've noticed that people who eat bananas the monkey way tend to be quite smug about it. Then again, most of the people I know who do that are teenage boys, so maybe they're not the best sample.

Amarië wrote:The non-fashionable way leaves the little yucky end with the black stuff inside the peel. Easy to get rid of.

The "fashionable" way leaves the yucky bit at the top and you have to eat it or pick it away.

I hate the slimy yucky end  

Amarië wrote:Poor Davy...

Thanks for the new banana Amarië!  

(I'll try to be more careful of this one... )

Nice one Amarie. Made me laugh  

thoughts about historic cycles of karmic weirdness

On November 27, 1095, Pope Urban II made perhaps the most influential speech of the Middle Ages, giving rise to the Crusades by calling all Christians in Europe to war against Muslims in order to reclaim the Holy Land, with a cry of "Deus vult!" or "God wills it!"
Urban seized the opportunity to unite Christian Europe under him as he fought to take back the Holy Land from the Turks.

At the Council of Clermont, in France, at which several hundred clerics and noblemen gathered, Urban delivered a rousing speech summoning rich and poor alike to stop their in-fighting and embark on a righteous war to help their fellow Christians in the East and take back Jerusalem. Urban denigrated the Muslims, exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ.
Francis of Assisi being the namesake of the current Pope, is the saint of the poor, the environment and animals and peace; he was a man who lived a life of evangelical poverty, humility and peacemaking. He sent his brothers out to preach the Gospel -- "and if necessary, [to] use words." As we all know by now, Pope Francis took this name because one of the cardinals told him, "Remember the poor."

But there was one remarkable event, often only mentioned in passing in church history books and even biographies of the saint, when Francis set out for Egypt during the Fifth Crusade. At that time, the Muslims still controlled Jerusalem, but to reach there, the crusaders decided to first capture the fortress of Damietta in Egypt and gain control of the Nile River. however, that Francis did not "buy the pope's call to war but goes instead to embrace the Muslims." When the crusaders laughed at Francis and dismissed him as he tried to convince them not to fight, he decided to meet the sultan. He and Brother Illuminato entered the sultan's camp, where they were treated as spies then brought to Sultan al-Kamil.
No one actually knows what was said since Francis did not speak Arabic and the sultan didn't speak whatever French-Italian dialect Francis used. It was their way of being together, the attitude of mutual respect and understanding, as well as their belief in one God, prayer, kindness to the poor, and peace that certainly appealed to both men.
When Francis returned home, he even amended the rule he had written for his brothers, saying that those who feel called to go to Muslims should be allowed to do so. In 1272, a sultan allowed the Franciscans to settle in the Cenacle in Jerusalem. In 1342, Pope Clement VI named the Franciscans the custodians of the Holy Land "in the name of the Catholic Church.

Today Pope Francis is starting a crusade for peace, calling for all the peoples of the world to condemn war in Syria.

So so long as the Pope, any Pope, presides over an institute of child abusers, lairs and those who cover for them, for so long as it continues to have so much wealth and not use it to help those they claim they are there to, whilst its banking and finances are cloaked in secrecy and impropriety and for so long as they continue to bully harass those who try to expose the Churches wrong doings and hide their sins from public scrutiny, for so lng as they persecute homosexuals and continue to treat women as second class- he can say all the nice things he likes, it doesnt make a blind bit of difference- it will still be the worlds most shameful institution.

I was talking about Pope Francis the man, not the institution, I admire him and I believe he is slowly reforming the Church. Being Argentinian he knows what real poverty is, and he knows what real injustice is. I hope his words reach the leaders and the warmongers. Its easy to castigate religious people and all priests as being part of the dark side of the Church, but not all are corrupt and not all abuse, its like people blame religion for the way man has twisted religion to gain control and power, made up scary cults, abused the vulnerable, but thats mans fault not religions. The basic message, moral laws we all should follow, dont kill, respect one another, peace instead of war, I dont see a problem with that side of religion the spiritual side.

I'll judge the man on what he actually does- so far thats next to bugger all- he hasnt opened the vaticans accounts to independent scrutiny, he hasnt turned over to police all the details of decades and decades of world wide child abuse. He still doesnt see a place for women in the church above flower arranger and he is still discriminatory towards homosexuals and he still insists on the Churches anti-contraception ban which is actively hurting and killing some of the poorest people in their thousands, if not hundreds of thousands world wide.
He can live in a sack and only eat stale bread and speak all the fine words he likes- doesn't mean jack for so long as the Church he heads continues to be prejudice, law breaking, deceitful and live to double standards.

he has actually started to reform the Vatican bank, he has also sacked the main culprit, Cardinal Bertone,

You dont let the criminals investigate themselves. Means nothing unless he actually just opens the accounts up to be independently scrutinized without the Churchs influence- I wouldnt trust them if they told me the sky was blue going on their historic track record.

For example every single Priest that knew about a child abuser and all the cover ups, the moving priests about ect- every one of them is guilty too, or should be, of perverting the course of justice, obstructing the police in their investigations yet its left to the Church?
If you or I covered up for a criminal, helped them hide their crime and found them a new place to live, we would be charged with those crimes.
When the Pope starts handing over the documents and the Priests to the Courts for trial I will start to believe he is serious of more than yet another Church cover up and protection of their name.

You don't change a 2000 year old institution overnight. I think he's leading the Vatican in the right direction. And yet the the entire church is NOT the Vatican. I've found that Roman Catholic missionaries are far more humble, culturally open, and realistic than the Protestant counterparts. There is some wisdom in ancientry.

And though you may criticize the Vatican for it's vast wealth, I don't think it would have quite the effect on the masses if it sold off all it's magnificent art and gold. I'd like to keep the old girl alive, as a sort of relic of the past, a dinosaur we can oo and ah at.

You don't change a 2000 year old institution overnight.- Halfwise

If he was serious there is nothing to stop him handing over all the banking details to the authorities, and all the information about offending Priests, who knew, who moved them, who covered up for them ect to the authorities.

There is no reason at all why those things could not have been done almost immediately upon him taking over.
These are not theological issues that take time to alter, or matters of belief- its just covering up for the worst sort of criminal.

Did a quick check to see what the new Pope has done so far.
His main two 'achievements' have been so called reform of Vatican sexual laws and tackling the corruption in the vatican Bank.
Which sound good, but the details are not so encouraging.

The new rules apply to laws only in Vatican city and all he has done is something which, frankly explains a lot but is remarkable that it was not changed long ago, he changed the definition of 'crimes against minors' so it now includes; child prostitution, sexual violence, sexual acts with children and indecent images of children.
Its incredible and disgraceful these things were not previously illegal in Vatican city and needed to be added.
He deserves credit for changing it, but really not something he could have left in light of all the abuse cases globally.

However the Vatican will continue to conduct al its own investigations, with no outside law enforcement at all- even when it happens in someone else's country- for example:

'The Vatican has recalled its envoy to the Dominican Republic and launched an investigation after local media accused him of sexually abusing children.
Archbishop Jozef Wesolowski had been the Apostolic Nuncio in Santo Domingo for nearly six years.
Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi told the Reuters news agency he had been "relieved of his duties" and the Holy See had "begun an investigation".- BBC

So we are to trust the investigation will be thorough and fair and that they wont do what they have been doing for hundreds of years- cover it up to protect the Church?
With no outside independent scrutiny why should anyone believe that? Faith in the Pope? Look how well that's worked out so far.

'The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child asked the Vatican to disclose details of thousands of cases of child abuse committed by members of the clergy.'- BBC

The Pope has yet to comply or give any indication if he even will or not. I know what my money is on.

Oh and one more thing he has done- he has increased the penalty for leaking Church documents- so as no more scandals and corruption stories making it into the press exposing the Church's misdoings. I think its clear where the Pope's interests lie there.

Doing what you suggest would be (perhaps rightfully) cataclysmic to the church. If he intends to go in that direction AND keep the church together he has to do two things:
1. Solidify his own position enough to pull it off
2. Move slowly enough that the church has time to recover from each blow.

You don't just throw your own institution to the dogs as soon as you get in power. I doubt he'll ever go as far as you want, but even to ask for any one of these big steps immediately is simply not reasonable. I'm hopeful that he may go about 1/3 as far as you want, but I expect it will take a few years at least.

I agree Halfy, he is at least starting the process, its a monumental institution seeped in secrecy and history, he has the guts to tackle it, but it wont happen over night. he is pragmatic and determined. The last Pope just didnt have the energy to oust the vultures so he abdicated as a last ditched attempt, he was actually very astute in that regard.

So basically Halfy- he's jut a politician in a dress?
Forget the morality of it, forget the illegality of the crimes, protect your own, circle the wagons and cover it up- I hea a difference in the new Pope's words but I dont see what the difference is on the ground with what has gone before.

It will be interesting, and telling, if the Vatican turns over the documents to the UN or not- it is a legal obligation backed by international treaty and they have until January to comply with no sign so far they will (they were ordered to hand them over in June of this year)

He's a mortal man in charge of a very human institution that he cares about. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of teaching a kid to swim by throwing him in the water. Might work, might not.

I don't think he can just walk into the vaults with a dolly and start throwing boxes on it. He needs assistance to get the right documents, and then alarm bells will go off and people will start hiding stuff - ....

Okay, so maybe he should call in the police to go through everything themselves. They'd seal the place, it would take them months to go through it all, the Vatican would be reduced to imobility....

No, assuming he is planning to make big changes (and who really knows?) he's gonna have to plot it carefully, have a core cadre he trusts, discuss everything in secret, THEN move quickly with a very careful plan.

Or else move slowly and give everyone time to dive for cover.

If it was anything other than a religion the police would already have sealed the place off and have warrants to seize everything.
Frankly I dont understand why just because it is a religion they are exempt from this, or the laws the rest of the world abide by.

Isn't the Vatican a separate country?

anyway my original post was more wanting to talk about the mystery of historical synergy how things are interlinked, I was interested in Saint Francis and his beautiful message of peace, not really interested in the Vatican as a seat of past corruption.