Religous debates and questions [2]

Yeah life is a lot stranger than it at first seems, and it first seems pretty bloody strange to start with!

I'm fascinated by your shaman/skeptic internal debate, Petty. I've seen things I can't explain either, most often deja vu memories which I look at and say "that never happened, my mind is manufacturing a memory" and then a few days later it happens.

Having no rational framework on which to hang these experiences I usually end up forgetting the details and so cannot put together a coherent picture of what is happening.

I know intellectually that through history we are (almost) always coming to a deeper understanding of the universe, so there's still a lot of deeper connections to be explained, but my mind is trapped in our current understanding, and will always try to push and prod current observations into that understanding. It's occasionally like jumping on an overstuffed suitcase to make it zip.

I really like the idea that opening up our mind will allow us to process information that doesn't fit into our intellectual framework. Though sometimes by coincidence your background processing is right, and then of course forget the things that did't match your subconcious processing.

can you explain this? because even now it baffles my mind what happened to me.
About 15 years ago I was staying over with a boyfriend and one morning I woke up like I have never woken up before, normally I am a bit groggy and sleepy at first, well I need a dose of coffee to feel human anyway, but that morning I woke up instantly and completely like someone had shocked me awake, I was instantly alert, and in that nanosecond I was given an absolute knowledge that something in the future would happen, it was as certain as my name, as certain as the Sea is wet, I knew this 'thing' would happen, that x and y would happen and z would be the result, and because of this knowledge I probably saved my life, because it did happen and I was prepared for the worst and made other descisions. weird or what?

Um, good sex has that effect?  

Erm Halfy, as much as I think your a decent guy, sex probably wasnt the answer here, Admittedly a good night of divine passion can heighten the senses but, I believe Figgy felt something & she was in the right state of conscience to tune into it. Its often been said that women are more psychic & sensitive to weird stuff ? & I think we are !

halfwise wrote:Um, good sex has that effect?  

how come it only happened the once then   

I've had things like that too, and I see no reason not to trust them (as long as they don't tell me to jump out the window or something...) Waking up suddenly from a dream with an insight I can't explain happens to me from time to time.

If you hang around with herd animals, this kind of thinking doesn't seem so mystical. You'll see a whole herd of flock turn and watch expectantly, and you know something is lurking there, or coming with food, or it's going to rain, or an earthquake. They haven't reasoned it out. They're completely mystified by human's ability to reason. And they're not always right. But still they know things and you learn to trust that.

I can offer you a shaman explanation Mrs Figg- but not a rational one.

And to do so I am going to have use some terms that are not common to shaminsm but ones that crop up in Casteneda (not that I am saying that should be the source of all knowledge, or is even true, just the terminology is useful).

Ok here goes.

According to this theory human perception is not fixed- we have a natural point where everyone in a species normally groups their awareness (not exact which is what allows for differences between individuals within a species) this is called the assemblage point- as its the point where perception is assembled.

Some things move the assemblage point- drugs, trauma, even stress can do it.
But those are all unnatural- in that the movement has to induced or forced by some act or substance- they are all therefore in some way damaging to overall well being.
But there is a natural time when the assemblage point drifts from its habitual spot to new ones without any outside interfernece- and thats when we sleep and dream.
From a Shaman perspective Mrs Figg when you were sleeping your assemblage point moved and by pure luck (perhaps) drifted to a point of silent knowledge.
If you awoke also feeling incredibly calm, a bit cold (in thought and action) a bit ruthless in how you followed this new knowledge you acquired and with a keen determination not quite usual to you- then you probably moved to what is known as the 'place of no pity'.

It is possible, although rare, to waken from dreaming without our assemblage point returning to its habitual position quickly, as it normally does on waking.
When it doesnt ( and in a milder sense than your experience Figg this is more common) we have those days where we go through many hours, or all of it, in a weird mood we cant readily explain.

In your example you went beyond that as you got pertinent information about upcoming events- or your energy interacted with the energy surrounding you and saw where the patterns were heading if something wasnt changed.
This allowed you the chance to make the changes necessarily so the predicted event no longer occurred.

is insght the same as fortelling the future?

Is that question addressed to me Mrs Figg?

Insight is the best word I could come up with. Language isn't very good at this.
Let's just say that it's not about future or past when you're understanding like this. It's more that if you understand why stuff happens then in the same thought you understand what will happen, or maybe the other way around.

And i don't mean "understand" in any way that you can explain. I mean "understand" in the way that you understand the moon when you're a child. That probably makes no sense at all, though it's clear in my mind. Oh well.....I had to try.

In shamanism the future is not fixed- its not like time is a road and we are walking along it and eventually we get to a future that was there all along but out of sight over a hill.
Rather its a bit like predicting the weather- the closer you are to the time you are trying to predict the more likely the prediction is accurate.
Every action sets certain things in motion- if you can read that motion you can see where its heading- but like the weather only to a point.

I'm always interested to read your explanations of shamanism Petty. They seem so technical to me.  Don't you find something's lost when you demystify the mystical?

I'm thinking back to when my Dad was teaching me to witch for water with a forked willow wand.  All he'd say was something like,

"Listen to the stick, then listen to the water.
Some folks can't hear it, and that's OK. ........
There! You feel that? That's what you're listening for.......
I'll just leave you with it for a while......."

That's more the style of explanation I'm used to I guess. Not so useful on the internet though. For that matter, what is the roll of mysticism on the internet anyway? 

Me & my daughter can smell rain long before it does. Even before the weatherman on TV. & in THIS country, thats kinda handy ! you never know from one minute to the next when it IS gonna rain ! Like they said in the film "A league of Gentlemen"....... dress for an English summer....& in the scene its pouring down.

I think mysticism can get in the way David- like chemistry when it was still alchemy- the genuine discovers were hidden and shrouded in a lot of gobbledegook.

Having said that the terms Ive been using are from Castenda, simply because I find them useful and my friends share the same knowledge so they are a handy frame of reference- but they arent referring to a real thing- they talk of the assemblage point for example but its a name for a thing that doesnt physically exist- its a concept, a way of talking about experiences that exist and are consistent between people but fall outside the 'normal' world of words.
And shamans alter the language of the description to best suit the audience- so now they might talk of energy when in the pat they might have called it spirit.
Words are a problem with this stuff, as they are the no good for explaining things that dont have explanations!

Petty you asked whether I felt cold and calm, as I had just been told I was about to die in a horrible way, I was let us say, brown trousering it, so no, I wasnt calm at all. I must say that the knowledge must have saved my physical life, as I am still here (just) but part of my soul died instead. so it did partly come true.
The night before I had climbed up the side of Peveril castle like I recounted to you all months back, its a very spooky place, Castleton is seeped in weirdness, I find it one of the most overpowering places I ever experienced, the atmosphere is ancient and very Hearne the Hunterish. maybe its spooked my tiny brainwaves.

Location is hugely important in Shamnism as the earth is a living thing and therefore has a massive energy field we interact with, it also has 'currents' for want of a better word- they can stay in one place for generations of short lived humans.
Involuntary bowel movements can be an after effect of a movement of the assemblage point (as opposed to the smaller shifts), although I assume you just mean you were afraid.

yep pretty afraid. my assemblage point seems to be backed up at the mo do prunes help?

Yes but I would recommmend Daves cranberry juice- much better all round and for more than just bowels. And tastier.

Thanks for the endorsement, Petty. I owe you.

One of the things that may fall into this category is that sometimes I'll be talking with a person and I'll suddenly be aware that this is the last time I'll see them alive. Of course that's a real conversation killer! 

It's kind of a gift though. It gives me the kick in the ass to say the things and ask about the stories that I might otherwise regret not having asked. Where does the insight come from? I guess it doesn't really matter to me. It wouldn't change anything if I knew.

Mrs Figg wrote: I am still here (just) but part of my soul died instead. so it did partly come true.

I'd like to know what you mean by "part of my soul died" Mrs Figg, but only if you're comfortable talking about it. I'll share a near-death story in return.

It seems to me that whenever you lose something you gain something else in return, whether it's wisdom or peace or something entirely different. That seems to be the balance of life. Is that your experience?

I thought I should point out in regard to the notion the earth is alive that I am using a different definition of life than the one we are used to through science.

The universe is energy, living things are the same energy, the difference is the energy that makes living things is for its lifespan, separated from the rest and in its own cocoon.
In shaman terms anything which has energy encased in a cocoon is therefore alive in some fashion, no matter how differently from ours- separated energy in its own cocoon is their definition of life.

They therefore call the energy outside the cocoon 'the energy at large'.
Perception occurs when the assemblage point forms, it has a 'glow' around it which is the sign of awareness, the position of the assemblage point is a mix of our species and then fine tuning from cues from all the humans we interact with in our early years finishes the job, once we have learned to solidify our assemblage point on one spot we are adults and will have a steady perception of the world- no more imaginary friends-  and can maintain it there by keeping up a near constant running dialogue inside our heads telling ourselves about our world.
The glow caused by awareness around the assemblage point lights up a small portion of the energy inside the cocoon out of the whole, and this results in it matching up with a tiny percent of the energy at large- that tiny percent of the possible energy at large we call the universe.
When the assemblage under goes a shift- say through drink or drugs, the assemblage point moves slightly and we get a different perceptional experience of the universe.
When it moves a lot that's a full movement, when that happens the glow moves off its habitual spot and lights up energy not normally engaged by humans (bit like redundant dna) and the glow does its job, it aligns the energy at large with new energy being lit up inside the cocoon- and you get a whole new alien way of looking at our universe, or if it moves far enough, a whole new universe to look at.

Sorry I kind of digressed a bit their.

One more thing however, bear in mind none of this is true.  
Its a way of speaking about things which can be (allegedly) proved through direct experience, not words, this is just a way of talking about it because humans are so inclined to do so that when we experience these things we seem driven to try to find ways to tell others about them.
Its a description of an experience therefore, repeatable and always constant, but a total being experience.


No problem David, I know the merits of cranberry juice well!  

And yes, if you feel comfortable about it Mrs Figg I would be interested to hear the circumstances of your unfortunate sounding incident.
I can add one myself, it is near death, but not all personal however so not really the same thing with regard to sharing it on a  forum, so I understand if you dont wish to.

''One of the things that may fall into this category is that sometimes I'll be talking with a person and I'll suddenly be aware that this is the last time I'll see them alive. Of course that's a real conversation killer!'' Dave

*backs away slowly*

what happened is a bit too intimate for public consumption, its too personal, only 3 people in the world know, one of them being me and the other a vicar so its not really in my comfort zone, otherwise I would. Dont worry its nothing weird.

One more thing however, bear in mind none of this is true.

As true in religion as in politics!

I'll be talking with a person and I'll suddenly be aware that this is the last time I'll see them alive- David

As a buckied smoking traditional Scotshobbit now into my 40's you must get that vibe of me everyday David!  

No wonder your so bloody keen to get the Who stuff sent off!