FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Let's hope your government doesn't drag its feet for as long as England and Wales has on actually implementing the new law, though.- Eldo

The Scottish Parliament says the first marriages should be taking place by the Autumn (the Bill still has to go throughthe rubber stamping procedure of the Royal Consent)

I thought you might enjoy this quote in particular Eldo from a group in full support of the move-

"Scottish Quakers are delighted that this bill has been passed which will bring marriage equality to Scotland, which we have been working towards. Quakers warmly support this move and look forward to celebrating such marriages in our meeting houses."

I havent followed the details of the bill too closely I have to say, or of he English version, so I am not sure how they compare, but The Equality Network said- "Scotland can be proud that we now have one of the most progressive equal marriage bills in the world, and that we've sent out a strong message about the kind of country we are."

I am taking form that the caveats and restrictions are less stringent than in England and Wales.

Now that just leaves NI, the only part of the UK now where there is no gay marriage, and they dont even have any plans to raise a bill on it either.   

Im not entirely sure myself but, is not NI catholic ?? If so, maybe its because of their views, religion wise, on gay issues of any sort ??

Its pretty divided there between protestant and Catholic, with protestants I think still in the majority though- but both sides identify and define themselves so strongly through religion Id guess that was why its not on the table.

Following the marriage thing the BBC Scotland website has a piece on how marriage law has changed over the years- and there was some things in it I didnt know and was rather startled by.

For example in the Middle ages girls could be married from 12 and boys from 14- that much I knew, what I didnt realise is that this wasnt changed until as late as 1929, when it was upped for both sexes to the current 16.
Thats just seems weird to think that in a time when Doyle was still writing Holmes, and women were fighting for the right to vote and WW1 had come and gone with Tolkien serving in the trenches, and WW2 only a decade away, girls were still legally being married off at 12!

Also in the Scottish borders there is a line of small towns- like Gretna- where historically people have gone to elope, well people from England but I never knew why.
The reason was that in England from 1753 onwards anyone under 21 couldn't marry without their parents consent, whereas in Scotland that has never been required and still isn't, so English couples just nipped over the border to get married.
One thing I am not clear on from the article but it seems to be saying its still necessary in England to get parental consent- is that true English people?

I havnt bothered to look into marriage laws I have to admit but, as far as IM aware, you still need dadums & mumsy to say YAY if your under 18 yrs. Once your 18 you are classed as an adult & can do as you like. Once upon a time You could sign up, go to war, kill someone but still go cap in hand to parents to get married   Funny old world !

Well keeps Gretna Green in business I suppose   

One of the reasons the UK nuclear fleet and weapons has been where it is- less than 30 miles in a direct line from where I sit- is the UK government have always told us there is no real danger.

Now there is due to be a strike there over pay and conditions and we are being told it would have significant effect as those striking include 'workers who monitor radiation levels'.

So, no risk then Westminster?

More like no bloody chance Westminster would put the UK nuclear capacity in close proximity to Englands most densely populated area, say within 30 miles of the centre of London!  

'A Conservative MP has called for people in the UK to come together and show their love of Scotland to keep it in the union.
Rory Stewart called on people to form a human chain along Hadrian's Wall in a gesture of love and respect.
Mr Stewart, MP for Penrith and the Border, said: "What we need is the human expression.
"On July 19 this year I'm hoping that 100,000 people will gather along that old, foreign, Roman wall - English, Welsh, Irish, Scots, holding hands, linking arms across that border.- BBC


Is a wall built to separate the countries the best place to do this?
Will the Unionist parties bus people in to make it look like a spontaneous show of support?

And what if 100,000 pro independence people turn up too?- is he trying to create a new Bannockburn?

This incidentally came from a Westminster debate held among the ProUnion parties, so no alternative arguments, no other side to it, just Unionists stuff over and over at each other.
The SNP rather humorously I thought put it on twitter as - "the #knowUrPlace debate".


Got to say the arguments in this 'debate' seem farcical-

"Labour's William Bain opened the debate, imploring fellow Scots to "reject the false and binary choice some seek to make in this debate that people have to choose between Scottishness or Britishness".

Except there's only him claiming it, right there, in that statement! And its not true anyway, as just like how Scandinavians are a lot of independent countries, so too is Britain, we would still be British in the sense of the land mass in just the same way Swedes and Danish are Scandinavian.
Worse this particular point was confirmed and settled more than two years ago.  

"Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael described the UK as "a union which has been built on shared effort, common endeavour and, yes, love".
He said he was soon to toast his wedding anniversary with his English-born wife and his "half-Scottish, half-English children".


And amazingly after independence he will still be married to an English born wife, his children will still be half English and still no one will give a monkeys. What is he implying, after Independence mixed families will have to be split up?  


And in more dodgy government news-

"The Ministry of Defence has been accused of pressurising defence companies to warn against independence.
It follows a report in the Financial Times in which a defence executive said there was "use of the dark arts".
One defence executive was quoted by the FT as saying UK officials were  "quite energetically telling us, both openly and quietly, that it is important this information* is out there."

* the information they want out there being their claim (so far without any proof) independence would cost thousands of jobs in the sector.


You can see why i am sceptical when like yesterday the head of BP comes out saying a YES vote would create uncertainty and risk jobs (whilst his company make their largest long term investment in their history in our oil fields)- one gets the distinct impression folk are being leaned on now the polls are seriously narrowing to only a couple of points in it.

Oh, it's probably all part of Camerons "I will not get involved." policy.

Good thing is, the more the English say it's a bad idea, the more the general consensus in Scotland will probably be for it.

it's probably all part of Camerons "I will not get involved." policy.- Blue

Yeah that defence gets thinner and thinner every day- its also his only defence for why he wont come to Scotland and debate with Salmond (the real reason being Cameron is a political and intellectual pygmy next to Salmond and Cameron has little to no working knowledge of Scotland and Salmond would wipe the floor with him)

True true.

I do feel this backhand spin tactic might end up being them shooting themselves in the leg though. With the debate this one sided, people will begin to suspect Westminister involment. And that is probably the worst thing that could happen for the "no" side.

If they really wanted to win this thing they should have fought it openly and on the issues. Not Cameron or the Tories, but the Scotish Labour Party is against it aren't they and they must hold some clout?

The way they are going about it now I'm suspecting a lot of Scotish people will begin to suspect Cameron and Westminister of telling them what to do. And for a "yes" vote, that can only be a positive thing.

That became a bit longer than I expected.   

I quite like Alex Salmond. The couple of times I've seen him on hignfy he's come across really well.

David Cameron's not really a politician, he's a PR guy. Actually he reminds me of.. Have you seen the Rise and Rise of Micheal Rimmer with Peter Cook? That's who he reminds me off.   Very poignant 30 years later.

Labour (UK) are against independence, and as Labour (Scotland) are the same party they have to toe that line. Problem is independence voters are not split down party lines- so whilst officially the Scottish Labour are unionist on this there are movements such as 'Labour for Independence' made up of Scottish Labour voters who want independence.
And behind the scenes there are those in Scottish Labour who are not as opposed as they publicly say because they are politicians, and power is power.

The other problem is Scottish Labour are currently weak- they havent recovered from the SNP landslide their current leader is hopeless and keeps making huge gaffes.

At the last First Minister Questions she tried to hit Salmond on the currency issue- asking what was the point of independence if we remain tied to sterling, Salmond replied by listing off all the stuff we would be able to do we cant now- set our own tax levels, set our own welfare system, improve child care, not get involved in illegal wars, get rid of Trident- and she replied by calling them 'the little things'- and of course has been rightly mocked ever since in the press for it.

Haha. That reminds me of something Muhammed Ali says about his opponent getting tired in one of his Parkinson interviews.

"You're in trubble now. In the ring with me is not a place you want to get tired."

Or something to that effect.

A bit like facing Alex Salmond badly prepeared on independence issues, perhaps.  

Searching around for articles about Scottish independence, I'm seeing arguments about how it will hurt the rest of the UK by endings its reign as a global power, how it will hurt the US by weakening a key ally, and how it will destabilize Northern Ireland.  But I've not seeing much discussion from non-British media about what effect it will have on Scotland.  But I suppose that's to be expected since public consciousness in the rest of the world tends to lump all the countries of the UK into "Greater England" (with the partial exception of Northern Ireland since they were in the news for decades due to the Troubles and some people lump them in more with the rest of Ireland).

I dont like salmon and I think the Scottish people should be very wary of him. He's not really interested in Scotland being independent and forging its own way in the world. He's doing it because he thinks he's William Wallace Robert the Bruce and Bonnie prince Charlie all rolled up into one, sticking it to 'England' (like if you go to Aberystwyth sea front, you'll find a whinging welsh 'monument' to 'underdog' countries or states allegedly under the heel of the larger unions they're part of) all salmon really wants is his bronze statue and his footnote in history, and bugger the Scottish people. He's just an Autocrat, plain and simple.he and his cohorts have as much idea of how to run a country as UKIP do the UK.

His ultimate plan is merely to run to England's old enemy, France and join the EU by the back door instead of via due process. Then he'll have access to EU money and a boatload of free Claret no doubt, finishing the job. Thing is he will need the EUs money to prop Scotland up as his party don't seem to have a plan to attract investment to run it, as tourist income and dwindling Tax revenue from falling oil reserves (if he gets his hands on them and how definite is that ?) falls. What the Scottish people need to make sure of is that they don't end up sending their EU tax euros to Brussels in order to prop up failing countries like Greece and Spain.

And after all that lot above, I actually feel that most of the scots people actually don't want to split, that there are more important issues like jobs and cost of living, but the issues been hijacked and pushed by the above rampant nationalists. I'd be sad myself if the people decided to end the union, it's become much more than what it has been in the past.

I think you are being disingenuous to Salmond (and those of us who want independence)- when he joined and worked his way up through the SNP they were a fringe party with no MP's. Nor are the SNP a one man band as the English press like to try to paint it, in Scotland we hear frpm the Deputy Nicola Stugeon just as often and crucial to the process has been John Swinney who is in charge of finances and budgets (with the latest budget passing with full support of labour and liberals- only the Tories didnt vote for it, demonstrating that unlike the Westminster politics even when the SNP have a majority they dont railroad, they seek as broad a consensus on legislation as they can get, our Parliament is not as adversarial or as divided as Westminster). The SNP also have a strong cabinet with some very capable ministers.

Secondly the SNP have been hugely successful in managing Scotland's economy within the devolved areas- far better than either Labour or liberal were, he made vast improvements and is the reason at the last Sottish elections they not only got a landslide victory, they also got a majority government in a PR system designed specifically by his opponent to ensure it was nearly impossible for the SNP to get a majority.

On inward investment I have no idea where you are getting your info from, it has steadily and consistently risen under the SNP, growing year on year, he has attracted large investment from international companies like Amazon and forged strong relations with other countries.
He has championed wave and wind power and wind alone now priiveds 32% of all Scotland electrical needs- the latest deployment sf tests of wave technology also manufactured here) are leading examples of the tech, and according to the EU Scotland has the largest offshore energy potential in Europe.
But it is being slowed up by the Tory hate of all things green, they want to start fracking instead.
The SNP are very business friendly and among other things they want is the ability to lower taxes to corporation and investors through Capital and business tax (which we currently have no control over) to attract even more investment.

Regards the Scottish people Salmond has actually led the way in the UK on many issues- he introduced the smoking ban and England followed suit eventually, he introduced the legislation for equal marriage before England (though it took longer to go through as there is a longer scrutiny and consultation process of law here- but should take a lot less time to implement), Scotland has had its council tax frozen since the SNP came to power, England eventually followed suit a couple of years later. He has maintained free education, free prescription and free travel for the elderly when England has not, and currently they have put millions into offsetting the effects of the unfair Bedroom Tax- no one in Scotland will be evicted because of it.

And whilst in England your teachers are always striking, the NHS is being privatised by the back door and is in dissarray in Scotland we have no such issues and our NHS is still fully public sector, an whilst far from perfect it is not hit by huge scandals every other month as in England at the moment. The police force has been overhauled and a 1000 more police are in the streets now than when he came to power. And our public service workers arent striking because anyone employed by the Scottish Parliament gets the Living Wage. Althogh we have lost a lot of public sector workers because of the budget cuts put through by Westminster.



There is a reason the SNP are a popular government with high approval ratings whilst the English parties are floundering in the polls.

On Europe Scotland is and always has been more pro-Europe than England- which is why right now every Westminster Party is dancing to the UKIP tune and in Scotland they have yet to even keep their deposit at an election their vote is so low and why when Farage tried to peddle his racist claptrap in Edinburgh he was chased off the streets.
Scotland doesnt have an immigration problem, in fact we are trying to attract more immigrants and the current who hates foreigners most thing at Westminster is costing our economy money.


"there are more important issues like jobs and cost of living"

Thats precisely why we need independence, so we can set our own tax levels raise our own revenue and choose how to spend it, and make our own decisions about hugely expensive programs like Trident, which we dont want or need and yet have thrust upon us- and if we do vote for Yes just wait till you hear the outcry when they try to stick a huge nuclear facility somewhere in Englands green and pleasant land!

As to most Scots not wanting it, its pretty close now to 50/50 in the polls with the last major poll putting yes on 48 percent and no at 52 (the vote threshold is 50% so if the poll are right the SNP already nearly have all the votes they need).

Thank you for these posts, Petty.   They give a real insight into the process.

You were talking about the leader of Labour in Scotland. Is that still Wendy Alexander?

Thing about her on hignfy here:

No its currently Johann Lamont, since the SNP took control of the Scottish Parliament Salmond has seen off 3 or 4 Labour leaders, and Lamont will follow suit, if not before then definitely after the vote if Salmond wins it.

But that does highlight another difference in Scottish and English politics- one of the main points argued over at Westminster at this weeks Prime Ministers Questions was the utter lack of top female politicians in the coalition government- in Scotland the current leader of the Scottish Tories is a women as was the last leader,  two if the last three Labour leaders have been women and Nicola Sturgeon is expected by everyone to take over the leadership of the SNP. Women are well represented in our parliament at the top levels, and in fact when it comes to party leadership are in the majority.

Im glad you find my posts helpful, trying to get information about Scotland from the press is about as likely as trying to get cheese from the moon.

From last nights Newsnight Scotland- (this is a honest as Ive seen Newsnight!   )

Yeah, rewatching it now I see it's from 2007. I just stumbled across it when looking for videoes of Alex Salmonds appearances and wondered.

And do keep the updates coming. It's all very interesting.   

Pettytyrant101 wrote:From last nights Newsnight Scotland- (this is a honest as Ive seen Newsnight!   )

Quoting your post for the new page.   

Thanks Blue.   

"David Cameron is to urge Scotland to vote against independence in September's referendum, saying: "We want you to stay."
In a speech in London, the prime minister will argue that the whole UK would be "deeply diminished" if Scotland opted to leave.
Mr Cameron will invoke the spirit of the Great Britain Olympic team, which won 65 medals in 2012, when he speaks at the Olympic Park in east London.
He will say: "For me, the best thing about the Olympics wasn't the winning. It was the red, the white, the blue.
"It was the summer that patriotism came out of the shadows and into the sun, everyone cheering as one for Team GB."
"This is a decision that is squarely and solely for those in Scotland to make. I passionately believe it is in their interests to stay in the UK.

"That way Scotland has the space to take decisions, while still having the security that comes with being part of something bigger."
Scotland is "part of a major global player", the prime minister will say, adding that, although only four million people can vote in the referendum, "all 63 million of us are profoundly affected".
"That's why this speech is addressed not to the people of Scotland, but to the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We would be deeply diminished without Scotland," he will say.
"This matters to all our futures. And everyone in the UK can have a voice in this debate."
The UK is a "a powerful brand" and Scottish independence would "rip the rug from under our own reputation", he will say.
Mr Cameron will also say: "The plain fact is we matter more in the world together. There can be no complacency about the result of this referendum. The outcome is still up in the air."

Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said: "This is a cowardly speech from a prime minister who uses the Olympic Park in London to give high-handed lectures against Scotland's independence but hasn't got the guts to come to Scotland or anywhere else to make his case in a head-to-head debate.
"They see the polls closing and they are clearly rattled - but to politicise any sporting occasion is shameful."- BBC


I think Cameron may be misreading the Scots- a big part of this is we dont want to be a big player on the world stage, we dont want to waste billions on nukes so we can still pretend we are important and have an Empire. We dont want to send our soldiers into unsanctioned illegal wars.
If we influence the world we would rather do so by example, by creating a country based on the things that matter to us, equality, fairness, equal access for all.
We dont want to go be going round the world fighting wars and trying to influence others.
And we want a country that's democratic- one where our votes actually count and not one where the entire country can vote SNP and Labour and still get a Tory/Lib government anyway that we never voted for.

And also the Olympics- people enjoyed it here but I dont remember any particular up-welling of British patriotism- it may as well have been in America or somewhere as the whole thing, and the financial benefits, the new infrastructures were all centred on London anyway.

This speech does however smack of a sense of panic, if Cameron is stooping to flag waving to try to save the No campaign instead of tackling any of the underlying issues which have led to this piont.

He will say: "For me, the best thing about the Olympics wasn't the winning. It was the red, the white, the blue.

Hey! That's our line, you limey bastard!