FREEDOM!!!! [2]

halfwise wrote:
I think the reason we have to have such a strong secular/religious divide here is that there's a greater tendency for the religious to go overboard with it.  Likely because the strong divide allows it.  Separation and strong religion tend to feed off each other.

Do you think it's really that strong?
My sense, both at home and when I travel, is that if you ignore the drivel on TV (televangelists, FOX News and the like) the divide is far less than you see between almost any two sports teams, and Petty has been impressed by how little we care about even those!  

The divide I'm talking about is the strong reaction to having religion in government.  both the religious and non-religious howl if the government becomes too embroiled in religion (though the religious are two-faced about it: they say "hands off!" to government, but are happy to have religion interfere with government).

So it's the official division between church and state I'm talking about.  The social divide only comes up in politics, and the two groups have largely trained themselves not to talk about religion and politics in mixed company.  Otherwise it's live and let live.

Ah, the separation of church and state thing. Eldo can probably tell us more about this, but my sense is that until after WWII there was no such official policy, only the 1st amendment thing about no State mandated religion. State by State though, you could do pretty much what you wanted, like Utah.

It's because the case law is so new that's it's still uncomfortable. It may take a generation or two to calm down.

I think until WWII there was basically only christians, a few jews, maybe more atheists among academics and artists but far fewer than now. But almost no muslims, hindus, etc. So Christianity was never questioned the way it is today.

Out here on the West Coast there were large Asian communities, mostly Buddhist, which coexisted nicely alongside large Hispanic Catholic communities, Protestant communities from all over Europe, Mormon communities, etc.

By most accounts it was a remarkably tolerant melting pot. It was the intolerance of the Buddhists during the war with Japan and the increased awareness of the Holocaust after the war that I think brought things all bubbling to the surface here.

How can anyone deny evolution? where do they think things like oil and gas, diamonds and T-Rex's come from?.  

Well I know one believer who swears blind all those things were put there by Satan so we would question Gods word about the earth only being 6000 years old and doubt Him. (He' s a lot better at forward planning than God is Satan  )

Another common defence is that the earth came that way in the box, it has only been here 6000 years but God made it to look millions of years old with all the evidence for that, but the dino bones and stuff arent from anything that actually existed (or the Bible would mention them you see) no,  they are just there to fool us and test our faith in the Word of God (He likes a jape, hell million upon millions have died laughing at the infant mortality gag he cracked in Eden).

Scottish Labour demonstrate why they lost to a landslide last time out, this time by making an arse of such an easy target as the bedroom tax-

"On the Good Morning Scotland programme, Jackie Baillie was asked: "Would a Westminster Labour government abolish the bedroom tax?"
Ms Baillie replied: "We are very clear. Labour rejected this approach when it was put to them in government, for social landlords. We have campaigned for its abolition.
"Yes we will abolish it. My understanding is that you can expect an announcement relatively soon."
But a UK Labour spokeswoman said Ms Baillie's remarks were at odds with current UK party policy.
"It goes against what we are saying - we haven't made that pledge to date," she said.

The SNP has said the Labour party is "mired in confusion when it comes to the bedroom tax".
"There appears to be different policies and views from Labour spokespeople in different parts of the UK."- BBC

Honestly Scottish Labour couldnt organise a stripper in a Whore House.  

Hadn't that same issue been plaguing the Scottish Conservatives as well, except that Cameron was more effective at clamping down on the Scottish branch of his party?

read an article in the Indipendant, it said in general women vote NO, and men vote YES, because the men all have macho Braveheart Syndrome whereas the women are more for continuity and safety.

Are you sure they asked Scottish women?  (The fiercest proponents of Independence I know are all female, and I do mean fierce  )

The percentages were there in the newspaper, I dont know how accurate they are. They also said it may go on to cause a lot of family strife.

Well at least they are taking a positive tact and presenting a positive case and not going down a scare mongering route.  

Mrs Figg wrote:How can anyone deny evolution? where do they think things like oil and gas, diamonds and T-Rex's come from?.  

Logic is pitifully weak when it confronts the wall of belief.  It's like the brain just shuts off when it hits the line of demarcation.

Much of what Einstein did was fairly simple, can be explained to a high school student.  What made him great was the ability to ruthlessly follow logic beyond the prevailing walls of belief.  Every time he did this it was like the fall of a sledge hammer.  Darwin (and his less famous compatriot Wallace) did the same thing with evolution.  Copernicus did it first, but after watching Giordano Bruno burned at the stake for similar claims was wise enough to publish after his death.  It took the undeniable useful successes of Newtonian theory to break down the religious claim to an earth centered universe, and it didn't happen overnight.  I think we are on the cusp of undeniable useful successes in biology which will do the same thing.  Medicine has been amazing, but with the automation of genetic sequencing the miracles will be breakneck and will crumble the walls of belief.  I hazard that in 50 years the evolution deniers will be a crackpot minority.

Mathematicians habitually push logic to its ultimate limit, but they get away with by not tying it to the physical world.  Once you connect it to real life, inhibitions set in.

halfwise wrote:

Mathematicians habitually push logic to its ultimate limit, but they get away with by not tying it to the physical world.  Once you connect it to real life, inhibitions set in.

Yeah, it's so much freer when nobody knows what you're talking about! 

As the Tories continue to try to do all they can in fear of UKIP to shed any green credentials, in Scotland-


Work is to begin on the largest tidal energy project in Europe after the Scottish government granted permission.
MeyGen is to install the tidal array in stages in the Pentland Firth, between Orkney and the Scottish mainland.
It will begin with a 9MW demonstration project of up to six turbines, with construction expected to take place on a phased basis until 2020.
When fully operational, the 86MW array could generate enough electricity to power the equivalent of 42,000 homes.
That is the equivalent of 40% of homes in the Highlands, the Scottish government said.
Its AR1000 turbine is claimed to be the world's most powerful single-rotor tidal device.
Each of the devices, which stand 22.5m (73ft) tall, weigh 1,500 tonnes and have a rotor diameter of 18m (59ft), could generate up to 1MWt of power.
Scottish Energy Minister Fergus Ewing said: "Today we have granted consent to MeyGen Limited to develop the largest tidal turbine array in Europe and the first commercial project off these shores.
"This is a major step forward for Scotland's marine renewable energy industry. This exciting development in the waters around Orkney is just the first phase for a site that could eventually yield up to 398MW."
developers Aquamarine Power Limited and Pelamis Wave Power are to share a slice of a £13m wave "first array" support programme.
The award is part of the Scottish government's Marine Renewables Commercialisation Fund."- BBC Scotland


This is exactly the sort of thing Scotland can do much more of if we had control over our own finances- as it is the Scottish Government does all it can with available funds to promote this sort of innovation but its made much harder by Westminster cutting exactly such incentives.

There was a decent quality debate on Independence on Newsnight tonight on the BBC.
On the Yes side there was Nicola Sturgeon (Deputy Leader of the SNP) and a musician and 'culture commentator' whatever the hell that is Pat Kane, and on the NO side was Margaret Curran (Shadow Scottish Secretary for State- Labour) and a business women, Tessa Hartman.
If it comes up on youtube I will put the debate up- but the audience was made up of undecided voters all from the Borders (which as the nam eimplies borders England), after the debate they went away to muse on what they had heard and came back later when Newsnight was broadcast to make a live vote- heres the result-

The Newsnight debate- very interesting- I'd be particularly interested to hear what any of our English hobbits make of it, given an Independence vote would affect you too.

Hysterical (in both senses of the word) piece in todays Daily Mail-

"Over the next 12 months, it will be distressingly hard to avoid Scottish voices on TV and radio droning on about whether or not Scotland should vote in a referendum to leave the United Kingdom next year.
To make matters worse, it is increasingly a debate from which the English, who as taxpayers send a hefty subsidy to Scotland each year to keep that country afloat, are wilfully excluded....Many Scots don’t much like the English and appear ungrateful for everything that England does for them in showering them with money....Furthermore, I believe that an independent Scotland would soon find itself unequal to the struggle of self-government, because the English money tap would be turned off. Its people would have to work, or starve....Perhaps after a few years, when they realised what a pup they had been sold by First Minister Alex Salmond and his friends, they would be back with their begging bowls. It might not even take that long....English money is propping up the most welfare, drink and drug-addicted nation in Europe....It is hard to compute exactly how much the Scots cost the English...Now, instead, the Scots plot a separate existence that appears not merely financially unviable — given the heavily subsidised style to which they are accustomed...What Scotland is most short of, sadly, is hard-working, wealth-creating Scots. Those with drive and determination seem mostly to be in England....Give them a few years of independence and I’m sure they will see the error of their ways."- Daily Mail

I have rarely read such ignorant, unpleasant, border line racist piece of journalism in a UK paper. Well done the Daily Mail- you have actually managed to sink even lower in the debate than I thought possible. So pathetic are the 'points' made they are not even deserving of rebuking so self evidently false and poor are they.

Give them a few years of independence and I’m sure they will see the error of their ways."- Daily Mail

It sound to me like they've gone so far right that they've actually come around the backside and are joining up with the left in support of Independence.  

Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows!  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have rarely read such ignorant, unpleasant, border line racist piece of journalism in a UK paper.

Based on my (admittedly limited) reading of British tabloids, ignorance, unpleasantness, and racism seem to be the order of the day for them.

Even by our tabloid standards this is poor journalism- not a fact in it and accusation thrown about concerning costs and the scottish people that use leading words and phrases like 'this suggests' to mask the lack of any actual truth.

Yeah, the excerpt you posted was pretty appalling. I'm not even sure what the point of it was. If the author really hates Scotland that much, you'd think they'd be glad to be rid of them.

Anyone had a chance to watch the debate yet? Id be very interested to hear the perspective of others on it with outside eyes.