FREEDOM!!!! [4]

{{Cheers to our Fjordian and other Vikingy nations! A Finnish MP is campaiging to get Scotland an observer status on the Nordic Council. This follows the SNP Cabinet Sec meeting with the Nordic Council of Ministers secretary general Paula Lehtomaki to discuss 'working more closely and regularly together around the challenges and ambitions that Scotland shares with Nordic countries.'

Here's hoping in the not too distant future we can look forward to reestablishing some old friendships and bonds with our Scandinavian cousins as equal free and independent nations of similar size, outlook and goals.   skoal! }}

{{ And cheers to our old friends the French and the rest of the EU members. This from French newspaper Libertation (its been throuigh google translate so apoligies there! If you'd rather read the original French its here-  https://www.liberation.fr/idees-et-debats/tribunes/leurope-pour-lecosse-lappel-de-170-personnalites-europeennes-20210429_Z6QKJJ2FERGWZGQ7EZGUFMTIGY/?fbclid=IwAR3q52iieAQ1s4qGT2__7g1XfnMjDeUmMalP7Uc21m9z_poVJUgDL_9axmE   )-

'As the Scottish parliamentary elections take place next Thursday, more than 170 European personalities, writers, artists and cultural figures are calling for Scotland to be welcomed into the European Union, if it so wishes for democracy.

'Dear Heads of State and Government of the European Union, dear President of the European Council, dear President and Members of the European Parliament, dear President and Members of the Commission,

We are Europeans from all over the continent and around the world. Of course, we do not agree on everything. But we all agree on this point: we want the people of Scotland to know that Europeans, wherever they are, would be happy to welcome them back to the European Union if that was still their democratic wish.

In the Brexit referendum in 2016, not a single Scottish district voted to leave, and Scotland as a whole voted by a 62% majority to stay in the EU. Over the following years, the Scottish Parliament rejected the withdrawal process at every stage. Yet in 2020 Scotland had to leave the European Union alongside the rest of the UK.

When the Scots voted to stay in the EU, they did so as part of the UK. Separating from the UK in order to become a member of the EU is another matter. It demands its own referendum, which the Scottish Parliament and Government have officially called for . Currently, the British government is refusing its authorization.

We must not remain inactive while this impasse lasts. This is an unprecedented development which requires new thinking on the part of the EU. That is why we ask you to ensure that the European Union clearly indicates to Scotland the way forward to become a member before any referendum on independence.'- Liberation

Genuinely touched by the outpouring of support and to help from our European friends. SSome par tof it might just be the chance to get at England no doubt, but I think the bulk of it is  genuine sentiment.   Santé! }}

Mrs Figg wrote:
The Tories know that empty 3 word slogans worked on the English...so why not try a wining formula  

That is very condescending. 

The people that I know voted for Brexit didn't do it because of 3 words, they did it because of specific policies. It was often the opponents that strawmanned everything down to Project Fear and Project Fantasy and all that crap.

It sounds like lots of people on both sides are getting caught up in rhetoric rather than policy!!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Cheers to our Fjordian and other Vikingy nations! A Finnish MP is campaiging to get Scotland an observer status on the Nordic Council. This follows the SNP Cabinet Sec meeting with the Nordic Council of Ministers secretary general Paula Lehtomaki to discuss 'working more closely and regularly together around the challenges and ambitions that Scotland shares with Nordic countries.'

Here's hoping in the not too distant future we can look forward to reestablishing some old friendships and bonds with our Scandinavian cousins as equal free and independent nations of similar size, outlook and goals.   skoal! }}

Until they aren't similar any more.

{{ Unfortunately the slogans work Lance, and not just on the english on any population. The people you refer to who voted for specific policies or reasons of course exist and pay attention and think through the arguments, fair enough. That's ideally what folk should be doing.
But an awful lot of other people, especially in the working classes dont, they rely on newspaper headlines and slogans on facebook to get the jist of things and nothing more, and they are often swayed by the emotive. Because if you work 12 hour shifts have a family, need to do the housework, sort out doctors, schools and everything else that makes up life at working class level. and do it all on a pittance, the ins and outs of political discourse are distant and you dont have time or the energy to go reading up on the actual truth of things.
Boris NHS bus slogan might be a joke to the intellectual classes, but it was hugely effective on the working classes- the fact it was untrue, even the figures used were untrue, made no difference- the short, clear emotive message was all that was needed.

Its bit like advertising, no one admits to being swayed by an advert, but if they didnt work there wouldnt be any.

'Until they aren't similar any more.'

Not quite sure what you are inferring there.}}

Lancebloke wrote:

Mrs Figg wrote:
The Tories know that empty 3 word slogans worked on the English...so why not try a wining formula  

That is very condescending. 

The people that I know voted for Brexit didn't do it because of 3 words, they did it because of specific policies. It was often the opponents that strawmanned everything down to Project Fear and Project Fantasy and all that crap.

It sounds like lots of people on both sides are getting caught up in rhetoric rather than policy!!

I can cope with sounding condescending, there are no logical 'policies', name me one. My own brother voted Leave, and that was because he was suckered by Farage. He isn't an idiot by any means, but he fell for the 350 million for the NHS, the lie that the EU stopped us having sovereignty, and they forced us to obey 'their rules'. Its utter bullshite. Minimal research could have told him otherwise but he was adamant.

Unfortunately the slogans work Lance, and not just on the english on any population.

*cough* "Make America Great Again" *cough*

This is a classic example about the media lies and spin, Liz Truss Has been accused of  "catastrophic" bungling on trade/free ports (don't know the exact details) this is from Labour, then you read in the Express that Liz Truss has got a 900 million deal, then you read in the Mail that she is concerned about being wolf-whistled by men in the street, not one mention of the "catastrophic" trade deal. I mean people are being suckered every single day by the gutter press.

Mrs Figg wrote:

Lancebloke wrote:

Mrs Figg wrote:
The Tories know that empty 3 word slogans worked on the English...so why not try a wining formula  

That is very condescending. 

The people that I know voted for Brexit didn't do it because of 3 words, they did it because of specific policies. It was often the opponents that strawmanned everything down to Project Fear and Project Fantasy and all that crap.

It sounds like lots of people on both sides are getting caught up in rhetoric rather than policy!!

I can cope with sounding condescending, there are no logical 'policies', name me one. My own brother voted Leave, and that was because he was suckered by Farage. He isn't an idiot by any means, but he fell for the 350 million for the NHS, the lie that the EU stopped us having sovereignty, and they forced us to obey 'their rules'. Its utter bullshite. Minimal research could have told him otherwise but he was adamant.

OK... some close family fishes for a living and they voted leave because of EU fisheries policy. In their opinion, their industry has been decimated because they have to share fishing quotas with fleets from other EU countries where they have little option to do the same the other way because of where the fish they are trying to catch are.

So there is one.

And of course slogans and rallies and bringing in tribalism works. It works for both sides though... not just the people you don't seem to like. And there are also plenty of people of the other side that understand the policies and vote for them.

My point is not to lump everyone on to the same bucket. They aren't all a bunch of uneducated racist misogynistic twats just because they have a different opinion.

In their opinion, their industry has been decimated because they have to share fishing quotas with fleets from other EU countries where they have little option to do the same the other way because of where the fish they are trying to catch are.- Lance

{{ And now they have no profitable market to sell their fish in. Scotlands been hammered by the fishing thing, with businesses going to the wall. The EU banned all shellfish sales for example from the UK, the vast bulk of which come from Scotland. The French are barracading fish markets and waters stopping UK fisherman from selling stocks and the red tape has hammered profit margins.
The promise that wed get 100% of the fish and still have a market to sell it to in the EU was a lie.
I'd be curious to know if your family member feels they got what Boris promised them in the run up to the referendum.}}

halfwise wrote:

Unfortunately the slogans work Lance, and not just on the english on any population.

*cough* "Make America Great Again" 

Seriously... we wonder why there is such a disconnect between the different political sides.

"The Tories know that 3 empty word slogans worked on the English..." is a thinly veiled dig suggesting the English (all of us... ignoring the people that voted otherwise.) Are fucking stupid and are unable to split bullshit from actual substance.

All of them.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:In their opinion, their industry has been decimated because they have to share fishing quotas with fleets from other EU countries where they have little option to do the same the other way because of where the fish they are trying to catch are.- Lance

{{ And now they have no profitable market to sell their fish in. Scotlands been hammered by the fishing thing, with businesses going to the wall. The EU banned all shellfish sales for example from the UK, the vast bulk of which come from Scotland. The French are barracading fish markets and waters stopping UK fisherman from selling stocks and the red tape has hammered profit margins.
The promise that wed get 100% of the fish and still have a market to sell it to in the EU was a lie.
I'd be curious to know if your family member feels they got what Boris promised them in the run up to the referendum.}}

Given everything that has happened since Brexit I don't know if they expected to.

But coming from a pro-independence person I am surprised you have that view. All rainbows and chocolate rivers in Scotland after independence.

All rainbows and chocolate rivers in Scotland after independence.- Lance

{{Shouldnt think so no, but what was Brexit about? Wasnt about democracy as Uk had that. Wasnt about soverienty as we not only had that we wrote or co-wrote most of the rules around it in the EU. And wasnt about economics as were worse of so far. So what was it about?
Scottish independnce is about addressing a very clear and obvious democratic deficiet. An ability to govern ourselves or make future decisions for ourselves. it is about soverienty as we can point clearly to Brexit as a clear cut example of not having any.
Economics is of course important, but its not the reason for wanting independence.}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:All rainbows and chocolate rivers in Scotland after independence.- Lance

{{Shouldnt think so no, but what was Brexit about? Wasnt about democracy as Uk had that. Wasnt about soverienty as we not only had that we wrote or co-wrote most of the rules around it in the EU. And wasnt about economics as were worse of so far. So what was it about?
Scottish independnce is about addressing a very clear and obvious democratic deficiet. An ability to govern ourselves or make future decisions for ourselves. it is about soverienty as we can point clearly to Brexit as a clear cut example of not having any.
Economics is of course important, but its not the reason for wanting independence.}}

For some people it was all about those things. The things that people promised to them and sometimes gave good examples of how that could be.

The same as the pro-union people in Scotland think you rent going to get everything that is being talked about or that the cost isn't worth it.

or some people it was all about those things. The things that people promised to them and sometimes gave good examples of how that could be.- Lance

{{Except they were never true. We had democracy, we had soverienty we had good trade deals. And since we left we have no change in our democracy, same soverienty we had as before and poorer trade deals than we already had via the EU. They might have believed them, but it was untrue.

When it comes to the downsides of independence, and there will be, border and trade issues with England, cutting the deficeit and the like- these are well known about and discussed. The White Paper the SNP is setting out will be split in two sections- pros and cons. The tories set out only what they claimed were pros- they never even told the people about the cons.
And we have a genuine clear as day issue with being run from Westminister and its ability to over rule what Scotland votes for at a national level through our own Parliament. There is a big, bad issue there that has to be addressed one way or another- if that turns out to be indie, or some form of devo max or some sort of federal solution at this point who knows- but something has to give. Its an untenable position as is.}}

No.... your opinion on those things is no fact.

People thought that having to comply with EU rules and regulations, many of which were influenced by other countries, was not soverienty. 

People felt that having representatives that were appointed and not elected was no democracy. 

And the trade deals thing is stupid since we have been in a global pandemic since Brexit took place and the UK could start discussions which usually take a long time. 

And you have "clear as day" issues because that is your opinion on those issues. Again, that isn't fact. You have the same issues that every minority electorate has ever had... you just want to avoid that by creating yourself ad the majority and letting the new minority moan instead.

{{ There are not many countries in the world who are governed by another country and enjoy it. There isnt a single country in history which once it left the Uk grip has ever asked to go back to it. That Scotland has a democratic deficiet is easily a provable fact- Brexit proves it alone- 62% and every single constiuency in Scotland voted against leaving. Yet we have left becuase england and wales wanted to.
In my life time since I was born in 1971 there has only been 1 Uk government that the people of Scotland voted for (Blairs Labour at every other general election Scotland has voted either overewhelmingly Labour and got Tories, or overwhelmingly SNP and got Tories).
These are facts not matters of opinion.}}

You aren't governed by another country. You are part of a democratic union. I am not really sure why anyone should give a shit about a slightly majority in an overall minority really. 

Is it really democracy at work allowing Scotland a vote or is it pandering to an annoying family member? 

The most annoying thing is you will keep fucking asking until it happens so it will happen. Then if sentiment changes and a majority think it was a mistake there won't be another one trying to come back in again.

So long as the majority are happy and the minority are silent.... well, the right majority.

{{ We are a part of a union of nations. Not states, not counties, not regions. Nations. Its an agreement between nations. The idea if one nation wants to leave the union they arent allowed by the biggest member, or that the biggest member will actively use laws they write to try to trap the other nation in that union is not democracy. The Union can only exist as a matter of consent, not by force. So long as Westminister tries to enforce it there will only increase the desire of people to leave it, as it only highlights the very problem that led to this point to start with- the lack of a democratic voice.
50 years of my life, half a century (bar a few months) and my country has only ever once been governed by the party we voted for - I just dont see how you can justify that as democratic. }}

{{ To put this another way what if when the Uk had the Brexit referndum the EU had just said 'we dont accept you have a right to it, once your in the EU you arent allowed to leave ever, and if you keep voting for parties that say they will leave we will just refuse to accept them every time. We will block your referendum in court, and if you hold one anyway we will declare it illegal and ignore the result. We can kick you out, but you arent allowed to choose to leave.'
Would England have borne that? Would they think it was fair and democratic? Would Farage or Boris just have thrown up their hands and said 'yup, theres more of you, you can outvote us that's fair enough we just have to remain in the EU then.'
I very much doubt it.}}

Lancebloke wrote:

halfwise wrote:

Unfortunately the slogans work Lance, and not just on the english on any population.

*cough* "Make America Great Again" 

Seriously... we wonder why there is such a disconnect between the different political sides.

"The Tories know that 3 empty word slogans worked on the English..." is a thinly veiled dig suggesting the English (all of us... ignoring the people that voted otherwise.) Are fucking stupid and are unable to split bullshit from actual substance.

All of them.

oh no Lance, its not a thinly veiled dig, I think 17 million of the English are as thick as mince. They did zero research, not even the minimum, had zero idea about high finance and complicated trade deals, and what was worse they believed a known liar. They voted for Johnson knowing he was a congenital liar and now they get upset because its all turned out to be a lie. That is the epitome of self satisfied dumbassery. Just my opinion but there is nothing veiled about it. People did believe moronic 3 word slogans and ask them who Keir Starmer is and they probably think she is that actress from Pirates of the Caribbean. Thick. As. Mince.

Lancebloke wrote:No.... your opinion on those things is no fact.

People thought that having to comply with EU rules and regulations, many of which were influenced by other countries, was not soverienty. 

People felt that having representatives that were appointed and not elected was no democracy. 

And the trade deals thing is stupid since we have been in a global pandemic since Brexit took place and the UK could start discussions which usually take a long time. 

And you have "clear as day" issues because that is your opinion on those issues. Again, that isn't fact. You have the same issues that every minority electorate has ever had... you just want to avoid that by creating yourself ad the majority and letting the new minority moan instead.

You do know that MEPs are elected?

Just like over here I have to assume there's a mix of voter types who might support Brexit. Some, perhaps even the majority, would indeed vote out of a knee-jerk jingoism. They likely would take Boris and co. as heros. Others would feel that one-size fits all rule must inevitably be inefficient and strangle local trade. They may not like Boris and co., but as nobody else is willing to do what they feel is necessary, would go ahead and support them as a means to an end.

The first group probably deserve to be demeaned, the second much less so. I see that everyone is partly right here.

{{ Very diplomatic Halfy.

But I think when you have a nation like Scotland which voted again overwhelmingly to elect parties who support independence, and instead of hearing that democratic voice, addressing it, or even taking it seriously, the attitude that to even listen is just 'pandering to an annoying family member' rather highlights the issue well and how England views us. If thats the attitude England has to Scottish democracy, the Scottish people and our culture being expressed why would we want to stay? }}

I wasn't addressing Scotland's wishes for independence, only the argument about whether Brexiteers are perforce unthinking numbskulls.