FREEDOM!!!! [2]

The Scottish would just have been an obscure agricultural backwater if it hadnt been for the English Industrial Revolution. The mill owners of the North of England forged an Empire which benefited the rest of Europe.

David H wrote:And many of the Hessians were just poor German farmers who enlisted because they needed a job. During the American Revolution many of them took the opportunity to desert, head west and go back to farming.

Yep. There are a substantial number of people descended from Hessians in the German-American population of Pennsylvania in particular. Some of the Hessians were POWs who stayed after the war ended in addition to deserters.

"The mill owners of the North of England"- Mrs Figg


No Watt no Mills. And he was Scottish.

  consider yourself trollied

I am becoming incresingly concerned at the government (thats Westminster and the Scottish Parliament) drive against so called 'hate speech'- this caught my eye today in regards the recent helicopter crash tragedy in Glasgow-

"Online hate comments about the Glasgow helicopter crash which left nine people dead are being investigated by police.
Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland said prosecutors "must take a hard line" against this kind of hate crime.
The Lord Advocate's office said Police Scotland were investigating allegations of crimes arising from hateful comments posted online.
It is understood about a dozen cases are being examined, some involving offensive, racist or sectarian comments in relation to the Glasgow crash.

"It is important that COPFS [Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service] demonstrates a robust prosecution policy towards such offences committed as a reaction to the incident in recognition of the fact that people died and the impact such crimes will have on their families and friends.
"I have made it clear that prosecutors must take a hard line against this kind of hate crime." - Lord Advocate

In the days after the crash one teenager was detained over alleged comments on social networking site Twitter."- BBC

Its all getting a bit Stalinist for my tastes with people being arrested for saying the wrong thing, or holding the wrong sort of opinions or expression the wrong views.

It's not like this sort of thing has never happened in America, but when it does, it's usually in response to some sort of political or military crisis that gotten people worked up. More conventional censorship, like the Hays Code in old-timey Hollywood, was self-censorship without government involvement. Seeing people arrested just for saying dumb things on Twitter, especially in an (ostensibly) open and democratic country, is mind-boggling to me.

I noticed that some woman made a joke about Glasgow life expectancy on tv and lost her job. If this squeamishness was the case in the 70s Bernard Manning would have been lynched.

The woman in question Mrs Figg was one Kate Hopkins, an obnoxious snooty sort who makes a living out of being dislikeable. She goes on shows like this morning or onto her twitter account and makes controversial remarks that seem to stir up the masses- prior to this she caused ire by claiming she would not let he children play with other children of certain names, as those type of names denoted those children were from a lower class than hers.

In the latest case she tweeted after the Glasgow helicopter crash some comment about Scot dying younger as a means to get out of work. It was poor taste at that time, but nothing more.

Within an hour there was a 40,000 strong facebook petition calling for her to be banned form all tv and radio broadcasting.
Hundreds reported her to the police on everything from hate crime to racist grounds.

And much as I dislike people like her who trade solely in the misery and controversy of others, I really dont like the way censorship is going in the UK at all.

And what really frightens me is that it reminds me of how all secret states operate- by the majority of people supporting it and reporting each other.

or witch hunts

I dont like this "spy on your neighbour" idea ! Government seem to enjoy promoting this as though it is something to be proud of, upheld & to be encouraged by all means. I dont give a shite what my neighbour does as long as it doesnt keep me awake at night, We are told that by Dobbing in our neighbours ( & family if it comes to it) will benefit us & be advantageous somehow ?

Yeah its the complicatedness of government in the broad sense I am suspicious off, people have always been nosey but this continual undercurrent of it being not even your duty but your right to spy on and complain about your neighbour, tied in at the same time with increased laws on curbing what people are allowed to say and what before we would have called an opinion now being a crime, it makes me very uncomfortable indeed.

I agree with you on the Kate Hopkins issue Petty.

With people like that their own opinion lampoons themselves enough. There's no need to silence them, they do themselves the most damage by opening their mouths. Let them spout their nonsense and have it revealed to be exactly that by debate.

I hadn't been keeping up with my hignfy viewing for a couple of weeks, but got around to watching one last night. And they did quite a bit on Scottish independence, though not from a very positive angel. They even referenced Buckie.   



I do like Ian Hislop, but the constant belief that you're right even when you might be wrong can get a bit grating. It works better when handeling the faults of politicians than when passing judgement on political issues.

If I remember right there is a buckie and a Doctor Who reference in quick succession- I think they read my posts   

Yeah, you might be right on that.   

I was a bit disappointed with how they handled the independence issue, but then again it's no different from how they have handled it in the past.

You get used to it after a while, sadly.

Yeah, I just find it a bit strange that the english tend to be so biased against it. All the more reason to vote yes I'd say.   

Bluebottle wrote:Yeah, I just find it a bit strange that the english tend to be so biased against it. All the more reason to vote yes I'd say.   

I can't imagine Sweden was really thrilled to let Norway go, were they? Or most countries in the position of seeing their territory and prestige shrunk.

I just find it a bit strange that the english tend to be so biased against it- Blue

What I find more worrying Blue is that they often seem to be surprisingly ignorant about how the UK works, how Scotland is funded, what it contributes ect.

I dont think we are against it we just think its a bit odd thats all. (no offence meant Petty   ) we just dont get the need, or all the negativity coming over the border.   I suppose the main reaction is whats all the fuss about? I suppose the Scottish people who want the Yes vote feel very strongly about it though. But from an English perspective we just assume that everyone in the UK feels part of the same Island, not seperate bits that dont like each other

Well, you do have a Tory government taking the country in a very specific direction. While the Tories hardly won a seat in Scotland. I think that has played a big part in making this a good time for a referendum.


Eldo; Norway and Sweden was a bit different. Norway always had it's own parliament and government, though we had a Swedish king and Sweden handled the foreign policy. So when the time came and while it wasn't without strife it was a lot more natural for Norway to walk away.

That's what Scotland have been building up to with the Scottish Parliament and everything I guess.

That makes sense, Bluebottle.

I do feel for Scottish nationalists.  Not only has their nation's identity been subsumed into a "British" one, the vast majority of the world considers "British" to be basically synonymous with "English".  So even if Scottish people become internationally famous, they're likely to be considered English by casual observers.  I imagine that must be a frustrating situation for a lot of people.

Other than the Andy-Murray-o-Meter, a good example is how many people talk about "the Queen of England" or just use "England" to refer to the entire UK.

Yes, and probably complimented on their English accent as well.  

Still, it most be good for the Scots to know that noone from England have won Wimbledon in the last 70 years.

or all the negativity coming over the border. - Mrs Figg

You see its that sort of statement that puzzles me.

The case for Independence is not a negative one- it is about trying to create a better more socially inclusive, fairer society based on traditional Scottish principles of kinship.
Its about aiming to make our country a better place and in doing so we can be a small but positive force in the wider world.

Its got nothing to do with hating anyone, or wanting away from anyone- most Scots have English family members, we aren't looking to split up the people just the politics.

As Blue points out there is a Tory government running the UK- they have 1 Scottish MP-1- and yet they run our country.

Its this massive political imbalance that Independence seeks to address- and the imbalance that goes the other way- the 'west Lothian question'- where Westminster MP's don't vote on any matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament-  like education- but Scottish MP's sitting at Westminster can vote on English and Welsh education, even though it doesn't effect any of their constituents.

These sort of things need sorted out- the alternative in my view for Scotland continuing on in a system where we get the opposite government from the one we vote for is an eventual political break down fuelled by anger- and that would be much worse than a civilised referendum on the matter.

The negativity is coming from England- listen to anything said by anyone representing the NO campaign at its consistently negative- if there is a positive case for staying in the Union I have yet to hear them make it, their argument is all about how terrible it will be if we vote Yes.

by negativity I am talking about Salmond and his 'attitude'.

''The negativity is coming from England'' Petty

yeah yeah its all our fault    obviously NO negativity is coming from Scotland   

As far as the English royal family go, I think when it suits some Scottish people talk about OUR royals and when they win Wimbledon they talk about how Scottish Murray is. Its all bollocks. it creates an us and them mentality, a sense of victimhood and bad feeling. We are all on the same fucking Island we should try to get along without mud slinging and petty jibes about Wimbledon.