FREEDOM!!!! [2]

The No campaign continues its positive no scares tactics! (and yes, that is sarcasm)-

'The UK chancellor has said there would be "very significant" tax rises or cuts to public spending if a Scottish oil fund was set up post-independence.
Mr Osborne said the creation of an oil fund was not straightforward.
The analysis paper, the fifth to be published by the coalition government, is titled: Scotland Analysis - Macroeconomic and fiscal performance.
It said: "An independent Scottish state could try to smooth its public finances and manage volatile and declining oil and gas revenues by establishing an oil fund.
"Implementing an oil fund in a similar way to Norway would imply very significant tax increases or cuts to public spending, over and above the plans that have been set by the UK government to repair the impact of the financial crisis."
Tory MP Mr Osborne also said that Scotland had benefited over the last 30 years from oil and gas industry tax revenues.
During an address to oil and gas industry delegates in Aberdeen, he said the best option was to reject Scottish independence and "work together across the whole of the UK".

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon told the BBC: "If you were sitting in Norway listening to George Osborne you would laugh at him - I expect a lot of people in Scotland will today as well because they are a country of similar size to Scotland that is sitting right now on a £470bn oil fund for the future.That is what happens when you steward your oil resources properly."- BBC


So the problem is Scotland is too wealthy and wouldnt be able to manage its funds- having masses of natural resources is in fact a curse not a boom! We will go bankrupt with all this oil you know.
As to- 'Scotland had benefited over the last 30 years from oil and gas industry tax revenues'- then how come only last year the Treasury has to admit to massaging the figures for 30 years so it looked like the revenue was a lot less?   Or peddling the lie for half a century in England that they subsidies Scotland when in fact we pay in more than we get back out?

You know what this Independence debate could do with? Some independence.

You see the problem is the only information we are getting is biased one way or another.

For example today the Head of the CBI (Confederation of British Industry) is to give a speech against Independence sayingit it will 'disrupt' the UK economy- well duh.
But apart from being from the school of stating the bloody obvious the Head of the CBI should be independent- and indeed his words tend to be reported as if he is  Head of an Independent body- yet read further and it turns out he is giving this speech in Glasgow today alongside Deputy PM Nick Clegg whose speech is on the strengths of the Union.

You cant trust a bloody word any of them say as they are all on one side or another. We need some independent scrutiny here people not just the weasily words of those with vested interests!

I am comforted with the knowledge that the UK is safe as long as Salmond plays a leading role in the campaign to break it up.

Going on election results and personal ratings he is the most popular and effective Scottish politician in centuries.
Even though most Scots think he is also a pompous arse- but you can be a pompous arse if you deliver on what you say you will and do what yo were elected too and on that he scores very well indeed, especially compared to the other major parties (look at the coalition- libdems sign election pledge no tuition fees, then get in power and introduce tuition fees, the Tories promise the NHs is safe in their hands, no top down reform or private sector sneaking in- then they get in and have a top down reconstruction of the NHS with private sector at the heart of it- thank God Eck has saved the Scottish NHS from the horrible things going on right now in the English NHS).
Every time they poll Scots on who do you trust more- Westminster or the Scottish Parliament the Parliament wins hands down every time.

Dont underestimate a man who got a majority win in a Parliament created by his enemies with the express aim of making it impossible for the SNP to ever get a majority.

is that why he was booed in Glasgow?

Everyone gets booed in Glasgow- and Glasgow is notoriously and historically a labour heartland- where it counts is at the polling booth- and there Salmond has an unmatched record.

The Scottish National Party was victorious in the 2007 election to the Scottish Parliament, emerging as the largest party with 47 seats. It narrowly defeated the incumbent Scottish Labour Party, which had 46 seats. The Conservatives won 17 seats, the Lib Dems 16 seats, the Greens 2 seats, and the Independent candidate Margo MacDonald was re-elected. On 16 May 2007, Alex Salmond was elected First Minister by the Parliament and sworn in the next day at the Court of Session in Edinburgh. The SNP went on to win the Glasgow East by-election, 2008 and the largest share of the Scottish popular vote in the European Parliament election, 2009.
The Scottish Parliament general election, 2011, however, delivered the first majority government of the devolved assembly as the SNP won 69 seats, considered a remarkable feat as the Additional Member System used to elect MSPs was originally implemented to prevent single-party governments, as well as to produce proportional results. Following the result, the leaders of all the main opposition parties resigned their positions.- Wiki

You can dislike the man, but you cant argue with his results.

you are welcome to keeping that plonker Beyond The Wall.
are you going to be using English pounds or will you be using toy money because Sterling is run by the central Bank of England, and that would defeat the point surely?

The Bank of England is misnamed and was created by a Scotsman (Sir Wiliam Patterson)- the modern pound is the British currency, created after the Union- therefore it is legally as much our money as Englands. Its worth internationally is also backed by Scottish oil revenue. Take away our oil and the value of Sterling will dramatically decrease- which is why its in both countries interests for Scotland to keep the pound and for the Bank of England to work as central bank for both.
England would only be cutting off its nose to spite it face if it decided to try to keep sterling as some sort of England only currency. It would fiscally be very stupid.

Considerably further down the line I can see Scotland moving into the euro once its stabilised- as we are much more pro-european than England is.

you should think about dynamiting Scotland from England, snap it off in one big chunk and go and sail off down to Europe. you will be free from the usurping English and we will be free from moaning Scotshobbits.

thats a joke btw so dont get uppity

Thing is Figg- and the opposite of the tone I am picking up from your points- this isnt about the english, or hating the english, or wanting away from the english- its about us. And being able to plot our own social course that is not in line with the more right of centre England - an England who have a much larger slice of the vote than us, so we get not what we vote for, but what someone else votes for.
Its about being able to shape our own direction, make our own choices success and mistakes. To stand on our own two feet as a people.
There are no Scottish pans for border guards, and for passports between us or any of that nonsense- most Sots have either english family or at least english friends.
This is about being what most other people in th eworld alreay are, citizens of their own country, not someone elses.

The two sides of the same-sex marriage debate have given evidence to MSPs.
The Equal Opportunities Committee is examining the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.
Pro gay marriage advocates, Tim Hopkins, of the Equality Network, and Colin MacFarlane, of Stonewall Scotland gave evidence.
Kieran Turner, of the Evangelical Alliance Scotland, and John Deighan of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of Scotland spoke against legal changes.
The Scottish government introduced the same-sex marriage bill at the end of June.
It is now undergoing scrutiny before committee members and in the Scottish Parliament chamber.
Following evidence from the pro same-sex marriage lobby, the committee heard from Mr Turner, Mr Deighan and Dr Salah Beltagui, chair of the parliamentary committee of the Muslim Council of Scotland.'- BBC Scotland

Well is taking its time getting through but I suppose at least they are giving everyone a fair chance to put their case first.

but you are citizens of the UK we are all one Island one people, any seperation is just in the mind, its in the past surely, I dont get it really, and I think most English people dont get that level of discontent and point scoring (from Salmond) either, its weird to us, in this modern day and age. I am not Scottish so maybe its impossible for me to understand, but a lot of Scottish people are Unionists and dont mind at all being connected to us. my tone was supposed to be mild ragging it wasnt meant in a hostile way.

The numbers are roughly about a third apiece- 1/3 in favour of the union, 1/3 in favour of independence and the other 1/3 are still undecided.

A clue to what the complaint is can be seen in voting patterns over the general elections.

Thatcher was the first really big one for most modern Scots- for her entire time in office- 4 general election victories- Scotland as a nation voted for labour- made nn difference we got Tory.
When we finally did get Labour it was only because England voted for them (and even then only Blair who was more right of centre than the Tories were)- most recently we voted labour again- ang got a Tory/lib dem coalition instead.
At the last general election the Tories got 16% of the vote in Scotland yet they run our country, introducing draconian cuts to the poorest and things like the bedroom tax- which would never have happened had Scotland had a say in its own affairs as our main parties are all socialist leaning.
Surely you can see how it feels we are irrelevant to Westminister- to become the ruler of the UK you dont need any Scottish votes so long as you have enough English ones.
And Thatcher, who is a lot to blame for the rise of the SNP knew this, so she tested stuff out on us like the Poll Tax, we get lumbered with all the nuclear shit cause no one in England ill have it in their backgarden, despite every single Scottish political party and poll saying we dont want them either.

An then we find out the Treasury has been lying about our countries worth for decades to stop us thinking about independence, whilst telling the english they subsidies us- doesnt exactly create a sense of one nation in it together does it?

edit add- but the main thing is just having control of our own destiny. Right now Westminster treats us like a 1950's housewife- we get pin money- Westminster takes all the revenue raised in Scotland and then gives our Parliament some money back to spend (less than went into the pot)- all we want is to be able to raise our own money and choose how to spend our own money, without England having to hold the purse strings and dole out the cash to us like a beggar at the door.

if its that bad why are so many undecided? is it because they are worried or is it because they are not fussed either way

thats a genuine question, it wasnt tonally off on purpose.

Uncertainty- always a big factor- independence is a gamble to a degree in that thee is a lot of detail we cant know until it happens as those negotiations wont even begin before the vote.
This is why the No campaign is relentlessly negative playing on fears of the future and uncertainty rather than trying to sell the Union as a good thing in and of itself.
Add to that there is historic reasons to do with keeping the Catholics out that means a section of Scottish society, the section that goes on Orange Walks, belongs to the Masons and supports Glasgow Rangers, are fiercely loyal to the Crown and UK as it was kept the Catholics away several hundred years ago- memory is long here.
No economic or social argument sways this mind set, its based in passion and unswerving loyalty not reason.

Glasgow Rangers fans at Ibrox stadium-

sounds a bit like N.Ireland

Not all scotland is- but the west coast (where I am) is.
The main divide in Glasgow is between Catholic and Protestant- ts displayed most comonly through the cities two main footbl teams- Rangers are the Queen and country loyalists, protestant to the core- Celtic were set up by Catholic Irish immigants and they disrupt poppy day silences ect and hate the British Army.

The Billy Boys- a rangers anthem -features lines such as "we are up to our knees in Fenian* blood"



And Go on Home British Soldiers sung by a section of the Celtic support-



*Fenian /ˈfiːnɪən/ was an umbrella term for the Fenian Brotherhood and Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB), fraternal organisations dedicated to the establishment of an independent Irish Republic in the 19th and early 20th century.
The term Fenian is still used today, especially in Northern Ireland and Scotland. It has also been used as a demeaning term for Irish Catholics and Catholics in general in the British Isles.- wiki

I think if you look at the question of Scottish independence the other way round it makes the matter clearer-

well as an outsider it sounds like a lot of the yes/no vote is sectarian and cant be divorced from tribal allegiances, a lot of it seems based on old rivalries. and look what misery and violence that caused in Ireland. I am sure there are pros and cons on both sides, ironically the more there is a push for indipendance the more you are actually treated like outsiders, the more the English gvt can marginalize Scotland as not being part of the Union and thus impose things without much hand wringing, there is an old saying, 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer' if you were to be part of English legal and Government legislation they couldnt treat you any different to a person in Birmingham, they couldnt do things to you because you would have a louder voice in English gvt, now you are so distant you have very little voice, the only option is total Indipendance, and good luck with that, once the oil runs out what then? will you cover the highlands in windfarms?

I am just thinking out loud, my comments are not meant to offend so please dont get angry with me, I know its a sticky subject.

it sounds like a lot of the yes/no vote is sectarian- Figg

Yes and no, the sectarian divide in Scotland is exclusive to the west coast, and in particular Glasgow- and its changed a lot over the years, its nothing like as bad as it was even when I was a kid, when the Troubles wee ongoing in NI and spilling over here- there is a reason the IRA never once bombed Scotland, just England- things are getting better in that regard and outside of the Rangers/Celtic divide most people now couldnt give a monkeys.

and good luck with that, once the oil runs out what then? will you cover the highlands in windfarms?- Mrs Figg

The oil only accounts for about 16% of Scotland total tax revenue, only England thinks we are dependent on oil because Westminster keeps saying we are- as well as alternative energy like the windfarms (which now provide 1/3 of all Scotlands power consumption incidentally) and developing new tech like wave power- we also have most of the UK Hydro electricity (as it works best where gravity assists and ou have a lot of water, and our landscape and weather is perfect for it) and then there is a massive international whisky export business which accounts for about 3 1/2 billion in export sales ever year, and there is our produce- Angus beef, scottish salmon (we have lots of fish farms) even shortbread and tunnocks teacakes and Irn Bru all do well in export markets.
And then there is water- we 'give' masses of water every year to England  to cope with their droughts  which in an Independent Scotland we would be selling.
We also have world leading research  institutes and Universities which are among the best and most prestigious in the world. And we still contribute way above our size to the world science community with new discoveries and breakthroughs- form Dolly the sheep to that latest one I put up about the smallest rotating object.

We are not a poor nation, we have an abundance of national resources strong market leading world recognised export brands and a small population to spend it all on.
We arent going to be filthy rich overnight- but we will do just fine, and better than we are now.

The most recent Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures demonstrate that Scottish public finances ran current budget surpluses in each of the three years to 2007- 08, totaling £2.3 Billion. In comparison the UK ran a budget deficit in each of those years totaling-£24 Billion.
Balance on current budget - £ billions

              Scotland..... UK
2005-06 1.............-13.9

2006-07 1.1..........  -5

2007-08 0.2 .......... -5.1

Totals 2.3 .............  -24

A report by accountancy firm Grant Thornton shows that if an Independent Scotland received only 82.5% of North Sea Oil and Gas revenues (without out the 6,000 sq miles of Scottish waters, London made English in 1999*) Scotland would have a budget surplus of £4.4 billion.


'No campaign politicians have repeatedly tried to play down the growth that is taking place in the sector and underplay the potential impact that Scotland having control over its own resources could have as well as playing on fears that an independent Scotland would not gain control of the oil resources.
However, their stance has suffered a significant blow today as Vince Cable conceded in an interview on Good Morning Scotland that "Oil and Gas UK expect production to expand".  In a separate interview, the Business Secretary also admitted that the oil resources are found in waters which would be Scotland's in the event of independence.
Speaking to Good Morning Scotland the Business Secretary stated: "I think that in past there's been a little bit of an assumption that it had been taken for granted. Also a belief that it was declining, and it isn't declining it's got great prospects."- Newsnet Scotland

'Baron Healey of Riddlesden, the former Denis Healey (former Chancellor of the Exchequer), said the UK Government had "underplay[ed] the value of the oil to the country" over fears of the political potency of Scottish nationalism at the time.
Referring to Westminster politicians, Lord Healey said: "I think they are concerned about Scotland taking the oil. I think they are worried stiff about it.
"I think we would suffer enormously if the income from Scottish oil stopped but if the Scots want it, they should have it and we would just need to adjust. But I would think Scotland could survive perfectly well, economically, if it was independent."
The question was explored by economist Professor Gavin McCrone, who was tasked by Edward Heath's Conservative government in 1974 with analysing the economic value of the offshore resource.
The report concluded that an independent Scotland which enjoyed control over a share of North Sea oil "would tend to be in chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree" and that "Scottish banks could expect to find themselves inundated with a speculative inflow of foreign funds".
Fearing the political ramifications of the report's contents, the government classified it and it entered into public circulation only in 2005 under freedom of information legislation.
Lord Healey, now 95, told Holyrood magazine: "I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of nationalism but that was mainly down to Thatcher.
"We didn't actually see the rewards from oil in my period in office because we were investing in the infrastructure rather than getting the returns and, really, Thatcher wouldn't have been able to carry out any of her policies without that additional five per cent on GDP from oil. Incredible good luck she had from that."- STV News


*In 1999 Tony Blair secretly made 6,000 MILES of SCOTLAND'S SEA - ENGLISH
by moving Scotland's marine boundaries from Berwick-up-on-Tweed to Carnoustie.
The shocking thing about this secret order is that it was not openly discussed in the Commons, passed by the house of Lords and then passed by a very select Labour and Liberal committee in the Scottish Office.
This act secretly passed, without the consent of the Scottish People took 15% of oil and gas revenues out of the Scottish sector of the North Sea taking £2.2 Billion out of the Scottish economy. This lost revenue is more than the proposed £35 Billion Scottish budget cuts for the next 15 years (£2.16 Billion per year)
Documents detailing secret government plans in the 1970s to prevent Scotland laying claim to North Sea oil have been seen by The Times. -The Times

So you can see Figg when the No campaign talk about Scotland not being able to manage, and that the oil will run out tomorrow, and how on the day of independence the sky will fall down, it is taken with a very large pinch of salt indeed. Westminster has previous on this, in  very big way, up to and including classifying anything which says otherwise.
To use an English term, they are not playing with a straight bat.

well I think you should join Europe if you become Indipendant, otherwise you will be isolated up there with only an indifferent English neighbour. if you insist on Indipendance i am sure the attitude in Westminster will be you made your bed, now lie on it.

I still think Scotland should become United State #51. {{if only to reduce those outrageous import duties on the Scotch... }}