Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [3]

[David H]

I just find it intriguing those physially closest to the threat had the more balanced reaction- America went, well frankly crazy, what with the brutal trials and all that and reds under the bed.

I suspect its easier to create that atmosphere, generate that fear to such hysterical pitch if the thing you fear is distant and you have no real history with it (America being too young a country) or understanding (no offense but Americans in general arent known for their keen interest in world affairs).
Its always easier to turn an unknown into the biggest threat ever than something you know.

I should point out that Russia is no father from Alaska than England is from France.

[Pettytyrant101]

Im not sure 'a bit of anti-socialist rhetoric' really covers the trials ect- the vilification of homosexuals (and Im still not sure how they thought that was connected to socialism) and expecially the witch hunts against those in the arts, and many more exteme examples of paranoia and hysteria which didnt happen in European countries who were also guarding the 'secrets'.
And if there had been WW3 the first targets on the Soviet strike list were all in Europe- with no1 being the joint (at the time) nuclear facilities of Faslane and the Holy Loch- where the American nuclear stuff was. And where I happen to live!
I think we had the greater, real threat hanging over us- yet we never went as bat shit crazy on reds under the beds or anti-socialism (anti-communism yes, but they are two completely different things- maybe Americans never made that distinction).
There must have bben more to it I think.

I should point out that Russia is no father from Alaska than England is from France.- David

True but its also mainly empty and doesnt seem much considered by the rest of the US- although thats admittedly an outsiders view point on it.

[Mrs Figg]

''paranoia and hysteria which didnt happen in European countries who were also guarding the 'secrets''' Petty

we didnt have as much open hysteria but there were many covert anti- communist societies in Europe. like Operation Gladio in Italy, Plan Bleu in France, Column 88in England etc.

[Pettytyrant101]

True Mrs Figg.
But they were about as popular as the BNP have been and with about as much publc support in the end- and they had little, if any long term effect on Europes views towards socalist ideals like universal health care.
Americas paranoia was nationwide and seems to have had lasting effects.

(Granted it might be different in Italy and Spain who had right wing tolitarian govenrments for long enough)

[David H]

True but its also mainly empty and doesnt seem much considered by the rest of the US- although thats admittedly an outsiders view point on it.

I have quite a bit of family there. I'd say the statement is as true of Scotland as of Alaska if you think about it.

Look Petty, we're ALL lucky to have lived through that. The whole Pacific Coast had nuclear submarine bases all along it. Ours was at Bangor/Bremerton. Alaska was bristling with intercontinental ballistic missiles and early warning stations at high alert 24/7. There were B52's with nuclear bombs in the air over the Pacific islands who would stay in the air for a week or more at a time, refueling in the air form giant flying tankers. Just inland from us is the Hanford Nuclear Reservation where the atomic bomb was invented and the nuclear fuel for the weapons at Holy Loch probably was refined. We were ALL targets.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yes but thats kind of my point, only America became super paranoid about it with a lasting legacy- thats the interesting bit to me. We were all equally targets here but it never escalated into the witchhunts of the US or into anti-socialist beliefs.

There must be a reason for that beyond the threat you quite rightly say we all shared.
If it was just the threat of communism then it should have happened here too surely, but you could argue it actually strengthened socialist thinking in Europe.
So there must be something different about America to explain the difference in reactions to the Cold War.

[David H]

I think you missed my original point. Most Americans of the early 20th century had absolutely no interest in war beyond defending our own boarders. After getting drawn into two world wars in as many generations, and being a major factor in winning, it became clear to everybody that for the first time in our history we were an international power. That changes a lot of things.

Imagine having the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics right on our boarder with thousands of nukes pointed each way, preaching global dominance and a not particularly friendly form of Socialism.

Now imagine it's 1940 and it's Great Britain. What do you think Churchill would have said?

{{and by the way, I'm not convinced that a media that bonks children is so very much superior to one that hunts witches. I'm not defending either you understand, but still..... }}

[Pettytyrant101]

What do you think Churchill would have said?- David

What can we do to help. Honestly- he was that sort of politician, very much driven by personal ideals that came about due his earlier failures in life that had serious, life threatning consequences for others.

I dont think Europe wanted a war either- the first one was horrible enough.
Neville Chamberlain (British PM) famously negoitiated peace with Germany, right before Hitler tore it up by invading Poland- but it shows the thinking was to avoid war even if that meant a cetain amount of turning a blind eye to internal German goings on and crimes against various ethnic groups- Chamberlain thought that was a price worth paying to avoid another 'Great War'.
And in fact Churchill through out the war had to fight against many influential voices (partcuarly in the aristocracy) who strongly advocated appeasement to Germany.
In that sense I think European and US thinking post WW1 was not that distant from one another.
There was no appetite for it in Europe either and in fact, once Hitler started his Blitzkreig it wasnt long anyway till Britain and Russia really were the only ones left standing, and then only just.

I think what changed Americas perception of itself and created the World Leader mentality, was not winning the war in the round, it was dropping the nukes on the Japanese.

ps I fear America's psyche will pay long term for its self positioning as the World Leader when power and influence inevitably move elsewhere, and I say that from the persepctive of someone living in a post Empire country.
A lot of what we see in England in particular at the moment I think stems from this post Empire loss of identity.

a media that bonks children- David

I assume you mean the scandals at the BBC in the 60, and 70's. Awful as that is it least wasnt official public practise and I think thats the difference between the two- the trials ect were officially sanctioned and conducted in the public gaze. What happened at the BBC was not public and not sanctioned, it was a pedophelia ring of people who worked in the same business- media.

[David H]

ps I fear America's psyche will pay long term for its self positioning as the World Leader when power and influence inevitably move elsewhere, and I say that from the persepctive of someone living in a post Empire country.
A lot of what we see in England in particular at the moment I think stems from this post Empire loss of identity.

I agree completely. The title of "World Leader" (whatever that means) isn't healthy for anybody to hold for too long. It probably should be passed around every 4 years at the Olympics or something....

I assume you mean the scandals at the BBC in the 60, and 70's. Awful as that is it least wasnt official public practise and I think thats the difference between the two- the trials ect were officially sanctioned and conducted in the public gaze. What happened at the BBC was not public and not sanctioned, it was a pedophelia ring of people who worked in the same business- media.

I was referring to the media blacklisting which only came to light because some brave people stood up to evil. Why didn't anybody come forward at BBC till now???? Joe McCarthy and his little "House Committee on Un-American Activities" was a very short-lived circus that actually brought a lot of the dirt out into public and got people talking.

I just googled Churchill quotes on Socialism. He wasn't a big fan either. Especially of those National Socialist German Workers' Party guys. But I guess that's understandable isn't it?

Churchill
"Socialism would gather all power to the supreme party and party leaders, rising like stately pinnacles above their vast bureaucracies of civil servants no longer servants, no longer civil." 1946 to the House of Commons

“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

I'll skip the quotes about the Nazis


Edit: I got McCarthy's Senate hijinks confused with the House Committee. Still, it served a purpose of opening the eyes of the american people and for the most part they didn't like what they saw.

[Pettytyrant101]

If you find Churchill quotes from when he was a liberal and not after he joined the Tories you find he was someone who changed their mind on the matter over his life time.
Given the events he lived through its not a very suprising change of mind but one which has influenced Tory thinking on socialism to this day- but Labour (up till Blair) was always a balance on it in a way I dont feel the democrats in America were.
And I dont know if thats because Democrats moved right or because the American people did.

"Why didn't anybody come forward at BBC till now????"

That hopefully is one of the many questions that will be eventualy answered once all the various investigations have finished and reported in.

[Pettytyrant101]

One of my favourite Churchill quotes on going from being a liberal to a Tory- I dont agree with him but still.

"If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain."

[David H]

The USA and the UK have been dancing different steps to the same tunes for the last 60 years. You get Thatcher, we get Reagan. I think the similarities outweigh the differences.

[Pettytyrant101]

The USA and the UK have been dancing different steps to the same tunes for the last 60 years.- David

I completely agree there- which only makes it more interesting that one of the greatest, proudest achievements our political system has produced in over 400 years is the NHS- a socialist achievment.

[Pettytyrant101]

On the subject of Churchill quotes- I pretty much live by ths one-

"Never give in- never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense."

[Eldorion]

Never give in to ... petty

Words that Mrs Figg lives by too.

[Mrs Figg]

''We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men''
Edward R Murrow Broadcast journalist CBS, 1953

[Mrs Figg]

Never give in to ... petty

Words that Mrs Figg lives by too.

darn tootin.

[David H]

''We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men''
Edward R Murrow Broadcast journalist CBS, 1953

I'm proud to say that Edward R Murrow was also a farm boy from Washington state. I wish we had more like him today!

[leelee]

He was a giant of a gentleman, but if he lived now he would probably be killed as soon as he said something wonderful.

[Pettytyrant101]

leelee- a joy to see you back again.

[Pettytyrant101]

I highly recommend this BBC documentary- its part 1 of a series thats just begun- so will probably disappear from youtube before too long, so getit whilke you can- fascinating stuff.



The arrogance and ego in Blairs words near the start stagger me- "I had taken the view that we needed to remake the Middle East."

[CC12 35]

i told Blair there was wmds in iraq sorry guys

[Pettytyrant101]

Shame on you CC - did you also do it dressed up as an angel?

[CC12 35]

no i was dressed as annie sexton she was dressed as a wayward priest

[leelee]

Never give in to ... petty

Words that Mrs Figg lives by too.

darn tootin.

you have never yet given in to him , have you?