Alternative adaptations of LoTR and TH

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think some scenes are more than just camera angles Eldo- the Black Rider scene he steals not only the shots but the idea and the entire set.
And I just prefer artists to produce original work.
I have an annoted Calvin and Hobbes and theres a cartoon in it about a road safety poster- the cartoonist notes that as a kid he entered such a school competion himself and worked painstakingly on a drawing of Snoopy. His entry was disqualified as it was not an original piece. The cartoonist notes he learned a painful but very important lesson that day about his art.
I approve of that lesson.

I have that book too and I have great respect for Bill Watterson but I think his notion of artistic integrity is too strict. A lot of great artists thrive on borrowing and remixing and creating new things out of pieces of older works. That's been going on for centuries; if anything it was the norm before modern publishing and copyright laws developed. I don't think either approach is more or less legitimate.

And nothing PJ borrowed from Bakshi is that egregious by cinematic standards.

Petty: I did post a scathing remark on "Hobbit Forum" bout the witches of Eastwick ! over this subject actually

Eldo I think the difference here for me, as I dont disagree with you that all art borrows and finds new combinaions for old, is that on these occasions PJ copies.
Its not a new combination, its the same scene, the same shots- the only real difference is its not an animation.
That makes it something different for me, its just nicking someone elses work.
Its the difference between being influenced by how Snoopy is drawn and just drawing Snoopy.

If the entire film was like that I would agree, but it's just a handful of shots that PJ copied. Beyond that, I think Bakshi's influence was more in the way that PJ looked at the story and less specific.

Also, I'm not trying to be a snob here, but I honestly wonder if you're bothered by this when it's someone other than PJ. Borrowing shots, sets, and the like is really quite common in movies and even great directors do it. Here's a list of some of the more famous ones:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-ten-famous-scenes-and-the-movies-they-were-inspired-by.php

The very first example on that list- the scene from the shining- makes my point. Kubrick takes the imagery, but he used it in a new context to serve the story he was telling, and added to it with the dialogue and with his own camera angles and sound.

PJ doesnt do that I dont think- its almost identical in concept and execution. He adds no new idea to it, its just a copy.

There are some new camera angles but it's still essentially the same scene. And of course the dialogue was different. The scene Kubrick referenced was a silent movie.

That scene is also much longer than anything PJ "stole", which gives more room to add and change things within it.

There is still I would say a notciably more inspired by in the Kubrick than to be found in PJ's which is more like a recreation of. And to do it once, thats a homage and fine, to do it, what, about half a dozen times in one film- thats a different matter.

The two examples that come to mind for me are the Black Rider shot and the shot of "Proudfeet!" I don't recall any other shots that PJ copied, though that's not to say there aren't more. If you can mention any others I'd be much obliged.

If you go to the bakshi v PJ script thread you can see some of them as I put some pictures up.

There are several shots from Bilbos birthday not just the Proudfoot one. Another similarity is that in the book the party tree is inside the pavillion- in both Bakshi and PJ' s it is outside in the open air.

Then there is the Rider scene already discussed.

Bree- in the book the gate is small enough for Aragorn to slip over it- in both films it is a large high gate in a high stone wall.
The hobbits room in which Strider confronts them are identical to the Bakshi room- right down to the incorrect windows which should be round. Even the style of the windows is exactly the same as well as furntiure.

The Black Rider attack in the room uses many of the same camera angles and is a recreation in the same way the previous rider scene is.

There are several identical camera shots at the Ford of Bruinen- particualrly when the river floods.

And thats just up to Rivendell.

Petty, I think in (at least) the PJ film, the hobbits are confronted in Aragorn's room. Butterbur states that the hobbit rooms are on the ground floor with round windows - but Strider takes them upstairs to what I believe is his room (why would he take them to their room - at least in the context of the film scene?). The table by the window at least looked Big People scale rather than hobbit scale.

There are lots of shots that PJ has done in FotR that "reference" (that's the arty term ;-) ) Bakshi's shots - as a person who watched the Bakshi films as a kid I really liked that, made me feel like I'd seen the bits before when I saw PJ's first time in the cinema, which gave a weird sense of nostalgia crossed with deja-vu...

Thank the gods he didn't reference anything from Bakshi's Helm's Deep though

Or his Isengard- which appears to be in Hades and would youd think have given Gandalf a hint Saruman was not one of the good guys.

Actually it would be incredibly difficult to film the Black rider scene any other way. The scen is set in stone in the book. It had to be filmed like that to stay true to the book. The hobbits are cowering under a bluff with maybe a tree on top, and the black Rider comes creeping and sniffing from the Road. There is no way round it. PJ made it wonderfully, I dont care if he borrowed from Bakshi.

As Eldo said, directors borrow and adapt from each other. King Kong has had directors borrowing each others imagery since the early 20th century.

Thats not what happens in the book- Merry Pippin and Sam go and hide behind the bole of a tree at the edge of the woods. Frodo lingers back and hides in the long grass behind a tree root, and is the only one to witness the Rider.
The Rider sways over with its head low to the ground and begins to sniff.

The only place it happens with them under the tree at the road side is in the Bakshi film.

The scene is essentially the same. They hide and the Black Rider comes sniffing, they are all together in the film for an easier shot. It looks better as well.

Its not essentially the same it is the same.
PJ has said the scene was taken from the Bakshi film and in Howes painting of the scene, which he did after seeing Bakshi but before making the PJ films, he says-
'This painting was inspired by the Bakshi movie, where the Hobbits cower under a tree root as the Black Rider seeks them. I thought it was the best scene in the movie, and it must have trod a path in my subconscious, as it certainly is nowhere to be found in the Fellowship of the Ring.'

Given all the other things that were NOT copied I'm not bothered by these few examples.

Sort of like a stage play borrowing the way they saw acts performed by other companies, it's not looked down upon. Perhaps because they are interpreting, not claiming independent creation.

I have no idea what your problem is Petty. It seems like just another excuse to nit pick at PJ for no real reason.

Its not. The discussion came up after I posted and interview with Bakshi in which he was expressing severe disgruntlment at PJ for not admitting in the early days after the films release how much he had borrowed from Bakshi.

Yeah, but you make snide remarks about PJ "stealing" from Bakshi all the time, which is why I, at least, responded in this thread. Not trying to give you shit but I just thought I'd mention it this time as opposed to passing it by like I normally do.

tell it like it is, a nit pickfest or fiskfutterfest.

For the reasons I have already given in this discussion Eldo- I prefer original works, and I dont mind works inspired by but I dislike when someone simply copies anothers work. I think it is another reason I dont rate PJ's work on the Lotr's very highly for a lot of the films running time.
Nothing more to it than that.

"Fiskfutterfest"!

There's a lot more to PJ's films than "copying" from Bakshi, and a lot of the examples of copying are understandable given that they were adapting the same source material. That's why it comes off as nitpicking to some people.

Anyway, live and let live ... I'm not trying to force you to change your mind so I'll probably just shut up now.

I'm actually still peeved at Miles Davis for stealing Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez wholesale (note for note!) and calling it "Pictures of Spain" without any credit at all. The muttonhead Miles lovers all think he's a genius, and he ain't.