Alternative adaptations of LoTR and TH

Everything is a product of its time- the same will be said of PJ's in 30 years time no doubt- I dont think you can do much about that or future proof a performance- I love Shakespeare but I find it hard to watch productions from the 50's and 60's becuase of the style of the acting that was common at that time.

ps most of the music doesnt actually sound quitelike that in the actual play- these are from the lp- in the play songs like Gil galad are sung by the characters (which I actually prefer)

Best thing about doing the LotR's as a serial is that the secondary charcaters get a chance to shine- I spliced the Barliman scenes together for this as an example of a character who doesnt get much service from the film versions-

Barliman Butterbur -- Tolkiens!!! Hooray! I want to get a copy of Tolkien being read aloud. Methinks it would be a whole new experience.

Bill Nighy singing the song of Gil-Galad is divine - I'm pretty sure the tune came from a Tolkien approved melody that predated the dramatisation too. I love nearly all of this production except the stuff at the end of the Pelennor and the destruction of the ring - difficult stuff to do on radio but the choice of having the story "sung" at this point seems a cop out after the wonderful stuff in other parts.

The hobbits are closer here to what I imagined (especially Ian Holm and Bill Nighy) than in the film, and my head!Aragorn is halfway between Viggo and Robert Stephens. I'm happy with Gandalf as either Ian or Michael Hordern, prefer Cate as Galadriel and Hugo as Elrond, slightly prefer Andy as Gollum although Peter Woodthorpe does a very good job. I love Bernard Hill as Theoden (but I have a thing for him anyway - he and Alan Rickman are my old Beeb crushes ;-) ), Lee as Saruman and Dourif as Wormtongue - they are perfect vocal matches to the voices in my head (which incidentally won't shut up and are now speaking French - grrrrr...)

That's a perfect Butterbur!

Hey Meiko....I just read your byline. '...death and destruction to all burrahobbits...'??

slightly prefer Andy as Gollum although Peter Woodthorpe does a very good job. I love Bernard Hill as Theoden- Meiko

I prefer Woodthorpe over Serkis as I get much more of the pity and sadness in Gollum from Woodthorpe- however thats not entirely fair on Serkis, as had Serkis had the script Woodthorpe did I think his Gollum could be superb.

I like Hill in the films, I think he gives a brilliant performance but I prefer the radio version as his voice is so perfect to Tolkiens description- especially at the Tower of Orthanc when he confronts Theoden*- Tolkien describes him as speaking 'thickly' and somehow the actor conveys this wonderfully-also the radio versionis cast to the age and character of Theoden in the book.
But I do like Hill too- its just different from the book and how I imagined him.


Barliman Butterbur -- Tolkiens!!!- Orwell

That's a perfect Butterbur!- Halfwise

Yup I love that performance- its even better when they are returning at the end, his delivery of his line "And there were some folk killed, killed dead if you'll believe me' is wonderful.

*thats a great scene in the radio play, I will try to upload it and post it.

halfwise wrote:Hey Meiko....I just read your byline. '...death and destruction to all burrahobbits...'??

I think you should watch out for her "Evil Horse of Doom" too. I remember her description of him earlier:

he's a clever, lazy thing. Big dark bay Thoroughbred crossed with something heavier. His name is Brock (means badger in O.E. and he has white markings so I like that fact) and he tries to eat small children and dogs. Would probably eat hobbits too, if they weren't so shy and hidden away these days...

I've never been quite sure what you are, Halfwise, but if hobbits, children and small dogs are on the menu I can't imagine why you wouldn't be as well.

{Meiko, is that Brock in your avatar? A handsome devil! }

Didn't capture the magic of Saruman's voice, though even Christopher Lee couldn't pull it off. Still better than that mauled, stilted version in the extended edition.

I think the Voice can be pulled off with some special soundwork and an actor who really throws himself into it, like Alan Rickman. This version falls short.

Theoden pretty much nailed it.

I think Benedict could pull it off..

The 'voice' thing is a very tricky one to convey- probably the hardest thing acting wise in the books, and technically.
I have always been rather glad that they didnt use some overt sound effect but rather leave the actor to give it a go. I think an effect, especially one which would be nearly 30 years old now would have dated badly.

It was mainly for Theoden I put this up, as I really enjoy Jack Mays portrayal a lot. (and amongst many other roles he was also in a 4th Doctor episode written by Douglas Adams- the Space Pirates)

like Alan Rickman- Halfwise

PLease no- I liked him in Dogma but thought he was appaling, hammy, campy and ridiculous in Robin Hood and he killed the characater of Marvin in Hitchhikers (one of the funniest in the original) stone cold dead.

are you kidding me? Alan Rickman SAVED Robin Hood. He was the best thing in it. He was the most popular actor in the film, so much so that film audiences cheered him and wanted him to beat Kevin Costner. He was deliberately camp, he totally stole the show. I think it made his career.

Each to their own- for me it was a poorly concealed, badly executed rip off the Sherriff in Robin of Sherwood- who was much better at it- the fact the rest of the film was so poor didnt help.
The cinema I saw it in the films two biggest laughs came when Costner gets out the boat and kisses the ground proclaiming his love for england in an American accent- and the end when Sean Connery turns up as the Lionheart, King of England with an Edinburgh accent- the place just erupted in disparaging laughter at that one.

I was going to put up some Gollum from the radio show with a just a still as above, but this time thought it might be fun to shove it with some PJ visuals- dont expect things to match up, lips dont move when people should talk ect-dont blame me, blame PJ for not doing the bloody scene properly in the first place.

IGNFF: What was your reaction when you found out how much of an influence that film had on Peter Jackson?

BAKSHI: I have many feelings about it. I haven't seen all the films. In some respects I feel good that Peter Jackson continued and went on, and in some respects I feel bad that Saul Zaentz, the producer, and various people never called me, thanked me, or asked my permission to do the movie. After all, I do have the rights. So I have many mixed feeling about it. Not has anyone sent me a bottle of wine, on the tremendous success. Eventually, Peter Jackson did say that the first film inspired him to go on and do the series, but that happened after I was b******* and moaning to a lot of interviewers that he said at the beginning that he never saw the movie. I thought that was kind of *beep* up. But I have more feelings on the business side of that than I do on the creative side. I'm glad Peter Jackson had a movie to look at – I never did. And certainly there's a lot to learn from watching any movie, both its mistakes and when it works. So he had a little easier time than I did, and a lot better budget.

I didnt know PJ had originally denied having seen the Bakshi version- why would he do that? Was he afraid of getting taken to court for stealing scenes I wonder?

David H wrote:

halfwise wrote:Hey Meiko....I just read your byline. '...death and destruction to all burrahobbits...'??

I think you should watch out for her "Evil Horse of Doom" too. I remember her description of him earlier:

he's a clever, lazy thing. Big dark bay Thoroughbred crossed with something heavier. His name is Brock (means badger in O.E. and he has white markings so I like that fact) and he tries to eat small children and dogs. Would probably eat hobbits too, if they weren't so shy and hidden away these days...

I've never been quite sure what you are, Halfwise, but if hobbits, children and small dogs are on the menu I can't imagine why you wouldn't be as well.

{Meiko, is that Brock in your avatar? A handsome devil! }

Yup, that is indeed Brock - and thank you! He just moved to a new place on Monday and the mare next door thinks he's pretty handsome too, they've been flirting over the fence ever since. He does eat hobbitlike creatures though - he's a bit like Smaug, vain, arrogant and a ruthless killer of the innocent. He likes kittens though - I'm sure Smaug did too.

I kind of bought him because he looked like a destrier (medieval warhorse) or a mount worthy of a nazgul...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I didnt know PJ had originally denied having seen the Bakshi version- why would he do that? Was he afraid of getting taken to court for stealing scenes I wonder?

Perhaps PJ wanted to distance himself from the earlier film. I'm not sure I entirely believe Bakshi. He claims that he had "the rights", but that's simply not true. The adaptation rights always belonged to Saul Zaentz, who was the producer on Bakshi's film. There's no reason anyone would have or should have asked Bakshi's permission to do the movie. It seems like he might have been letting his sour grapes get the better of him in that interview.

That said, it would have been pretty douchey if PJ actually did deny seeing Bakshi's film.

EDIT: If "stealing" scenes by copying camera angles actually got taken to court, then Quentin Tarantino's career would have ended approximately one week after his first movie was released. You bring this up a lot but I don't think it diminishes PJ's films at all.

ive got a paper back book, called "Peter Jackson,from prince of splatter to lord of the rings", Its full of stuff,havnt had time to read it from cover to cover. But,on pg 230,It does state that PJ got a train into Wellington just to watch RBs film of LOTRs. According to a childhood friend of PJs, Pj never showed interest in Tolkien till he saw RBs version, & not long after that did PJ pick up a book & read LOTRs for himself.

I think some scenes are more than just camera angles Eldo- the Black Rider scene he steals not only the shots but the idea and the entire set.
And I just prefer artists to produce original work.
I have an annoted Calvin and Hobbes and theres a cartoon in it about a road safety poster- the cartoonist notes that as a kid he entered such a school competion himself and worked painstakingly on a drawing of Snoopy. His entry was disqualified as it was not an original piece. The cartoonist notes he learned a painful but very important lesson that day about his art.
I approve of that lesson.

Azriel- PJ's probably still only read it once. I wonder if he even knew when the script was deviating from Tolkien?
Maybe Boyens just sat there saying "yes it happens exactly like that in the books Peter, trust me"- she did say in an interview that she wrote for the directors style!

Mmm, on said page of said book, the friend of PJ, (Andrew Neal) apparantly spent hours copying a giant picture of RBs "Black Riders" on his bedroom wall, PJ must have seen that ? As kids/friends you share everything.