Re: Alternative adaptations of LoTR and TH

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:10 pm

poor Nagual he has my sympathy.- Figg

He is used to it, poor bastard.

by Eldorion Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:34 am

You have to get Nagual to see DOS and BOFA, if only to calibrate the crabbit meters. Mad

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:07 am

BBC radio adaptation on youtube, enjoy. Highly recommended if you have never heard them before (even if I dont like the opening)

by malickfan Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:41 pm

So, has anyone read up about the John Boorman script?

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?16196-John-Boorman-s-70s-script

by halfwise Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:23 pm

Everything I've seen about it makes me shudder. And I keep seeing new things, each worse than the last. affraid

by David H Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:55 pm

by David H Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:03 am

I've distilled Malick's link down to just the sexually implicit horrors. Now I think I need to wash....
or maybe to vomit.... excuse me! pale

...a field covered with mushrooms. The HOBBITS are delighted. They set to, picking and eating them as fast as they can. They begin to laugh and giggle, becoming rather unsteady on their feet. ....Suddenly they are in a field of buttercups. Naked children run and play among the golden flowers. The HOBBITS blink and grin and MERRY belches.

Perhaps the most provocative change occurs in Lothlorien where, before gazing into Galadriel's mirror, Frodo must become intimate with her (this does not cause friction with husband Celeborn because he is not featured.)....

Galadriel is treated as a sort of oracle/sex object. While the Fellowship doesn’t seek her out, she is, apparently, something longed for. (Maybe she has to find you, I don’t know.) Late in the script, Denethor asks Pippin how Boromir fared with Galadriel. (Poor Pip has to say she chose a hobbit instead.)

Boromir’s failure isn’t for a lack of trying, though, for within minutes of Galadriel’s unexpected appearance (she emerges from a lake in the midst of the Fellowship as they are bathing) he bares his muscles and makes a pass at her. And that’s the way of it.

Where in the book the Fellowship may have been awed by Galadriel, in this script some openly lust for her. After recognizing Galadriel, Legolas - who is “clad in feathers and leaves.” - tries to catch her attention by doing a “bird-like dance.”

Gimli ogles her at the lake, and later says “Galadriel! A mighty piece of stone she is, for a Dwarfish tool to carve.”

When Galadriel rebuffs Boromir’s advance, Sam says, “She is a pretty flower, but she badly needs watering, she does!”

But Galadriel chooses Frodo, of course. When he peers into the water-filled basin that she keeps, Frodo sees nothing. Galadriel tells him that he does not yet have the knowledge to see. When Frodo admits that he doesn’t know the questions to ask, Galadriel says, “Your eyes ask questions…already.” As it turns out, the basin isn’t the Mirror at all; it is, instead, Galadriel’s Elven Ring.

Aragorn and Boromir come to blows over the fate of Narsil. (Boromir wants to take it to Minas Tirith. Aragorn refuses, and Boromir snatches away one half of the sword.) When their blades meet, Arwen appears, declaring that they shall each bear one half of the sword. They bow, presenting the blades. She kisses the swords, drawing blood. She then kisses each of the men. Both men are moved; and Boromir, weeping, kisses Aragorn, cementing a blood bond.

In a Shakespearian-like scene, Aragorn inadvertently kills Denethor. He tells the Steward that Boromir is his blood-brother, and moves to embrace him. But before Aragorn tightens the embrace, Denethor holds a dagger to his own heart. Without a word Aragorn turns to the unconscious Éowyn…

Aragorn lies on top of Éowyn, placing his hands on hers.

“After a moment, she moans, and her body writhes, trapped under ARAGORN’s great weight. When he feels her stir, he rises, lifting her with him, enfolding her in his arms, pressing her mouth and body to his.

While this is happening Gandalf is performing a nifty tie-dye trick with a banner of Elendil. He folds the flag just so, and dips it into Denethor’s blood. When Éowyn comes to, Gandalf unfurls the banner to reveal “a beautiful mandala in blood, radiating from the centre of the white tree.” Then he holds it over Aragorn and Éowyn, and proclaims “The hands of the healer are the hands of the King! The King has returned to Gondor!” A group of onlookers chant “Aragorn King! Éowyn Queen!”

by Eldorion Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:20 am

There are some details in there that I hadn't been aware of before. lol!

I actually want to see this movie more now, just not in any context connected to Tolkien. Was Boorman's Excalibur anywhere near this level of crazy-awesome?

"Galadriel! A mighty piece of stone she is, for a Dwarfish tool to carve.”

“She is a pretty flower, but she badly needs watering, she does!”

Imma need to remember these as pick-up lines. Laughing

by David H Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:51 am

Eldorion wrote:
"Galadriel! A mighty piece of stone she is, for a Dwarfish tool to carve.”

“She is a pretty flower, but she badly needs watering, she does!”

Imma need to remember these as pick-up lines.

Good luck with those, Eldo! Very Happy

{{{{Oh, to be young again! Rolling Eyes

}}}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:17 pm

Was Boorman's Excalibur anywhere near this level of crazy-awesome? - Eldo

Yes and no- yes in that there is a bit of sex and stuff in it- no in that there was room for it in the original Mort De Arthur its based on- so you have Arthur sleeping with his half sister Morganna for example to produce his eventual nemesis Mordred. And you have Lancelot with Guinevere of course.

So the weird tone it creates when you insert this sort of stuff into Tolkien actually works well in Excalibur and suits the film and works with it.

by Mrs Figg Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:26 pm

love Excalibur I love you

its like the guys from Fleetwood Mac and Ken Russell decided to go back in time and ask DH Lawrence to script a film with Oscar Wilde doing the set designing. Bonkers but it works.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:28 pm

Yeah, its melodramatic, romanticised and has a musical score that goes from sweeping and majestical to bordering on parody- yet for the Arthurian legend it all works somehow.
Easily in my view the best retelling of the tale on cinema.

by halfwise Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:45 pm

As I said before the main reason Excalibur doesn't work for me is Arthur comes across as a hippy flower child, not a king. No, that's no right, a hippy leader usually has depth and charisma.

Anyway, I saw a lot of the goofiness in the Boorman script coming out in Excalibur, and did not think highly of it. As a result the character's motivations just don't gel. Maybe if you go into it looking for these bits of goofiness you can enjoy it more.

by Mrs Figg Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:02 pm

for me its all about the 70s vibe, Biba costumes, joss sticks, a bit kitsch, off kilter just missing grandeur with a whiff of unintentional parody. Bryan Ferry would have made a film like Excalibur.

by halfwise Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:13 pm

I think if you're expecting that kind of stuff and NOT expecting a thought provoking retelling of the Arthur legend, you can enjoy it. So Eldo, come mentally prepared.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:14 pm

I think if you're expecting that kind of stuff and NOT expecting a thought provoking retelling of the Arthur legend- Halfy

I couldn't disagree more. I first saw it not long after reading Le Mort De Arthur, and oddly given how far our the take on LotR's was, Excalibur is a surprisingly faithful adaptation of that book. I'd even go so far as to call it a good faithful adaptation of its source material.

by halfwise Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:34 pm

Telling the story has nothing to do with what's wrong with it. Amid all the glitter and soft focus, the characters just don't seem right. You had previously shown one clip where the newly dubbed Arthur is beginning to show something that might inspire devotion from his knights, but it's not followed through and we see no other signs of him having any leadership capability whatsoever. The knights just follow him with undeserved devotion, which I found totally perplexing.

Mordred has the same type of problem: seems to be more a zombie of his mother than anyone who could be mistaken for a king. I could go on, but I'd have to force myself to watch the thing again. Only Lancelot and Morgana seemed somewhat real to me, though her trickery of Merlin was also not believable. Sure, fantasy is all unbelievable, especially fantasy movies; but at least a movie like Conan isn't asking to be taken seriously.

It's really on the verge of being Monty Python (with all the random motivations) except that it tries so hard to take itself seriously. To me it was an utter failure.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:59 pm

we see no other signs of him having any leadership capability whatsoever. The knights just follow him with undeserved devotion, which I found totally perplexing. - Halfy

Which is the same as in the book, and in fact every original version of the story- he is the one and true King, with all the Christian subtext that brings it is enough in medieval eyes to follow him.
Similarly Mordred is everything represented by Satan and so needs nothing more essentially than he is the bad guy- they are not characters they are character types, representations of ideals- just as they are in the original- just as Lancelot is, just as Percival is.

I love Merlin in it, best version of him ever I'd say.

I also enjoy the subtext of the fading of the many Gods and the world of magic to replaced by the new One God of Christianity, and I thought that was done beautifully through the films imagery. It gives a real sense of a pivot point in history when the old beliefs are being swept away by the new.

by Eldorion Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:10 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Yes and no- yes in that there is a bit of sex and stuff in it- no in that there was room for it in the original Mort De Arthur its based on- so you have Arthur sleeping with his half sister Morganna for example to produce his eventual nemesis Mordred. And you have Lancelot with Guinevere of course.

So the weird tone it creates when you insert this sort of stuff into Tolkien actually works well in Excalibur and suits the film and works with it.

My first exposure to Arthurian legend beyond the surface-level stuff you get in children's books was Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon, which I read when I was about 10 or 11. My mom knew I was big into LOTR and fantasy stuff and she remembered her brother having liked the book as a teenager, so she gave it to me without really knowing what was in it. Laughing

That was a bit of a shock to my system, though it really was a great book and several of the sequels were very good as well. I know there was a TV adaptation but I'm not sure how some of the more out-there elements would have worked onscreen, especially with a TV budget. I feel like something that has been constantly copied and reinterpreted, like Arthur, might have been an interesting vehicle for Boorman's mystical/trippy ideas, since you can alter elements to explore new ideas, sort of like how Bradley did with recasting Morgana as a proto-feminist figure and exploring politics and spirituality in the context of a matriarchal (and hardly utopian) society.

by Mrs Figg Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:14 am

Merlin, definitely the best Merlin ever in film.