HUSSEIN vs WILLARD: Rumble in the Electoral College

I would so love to keep trawling through results and thinking about what it all means but I have a test in a little over eight hours so I should really go. Thanks again for a fantastic night, everyone! I had a really great time; I will remember this for many elections to come. We should do this again sometime.

Good night Eldo. I've got a full day of harvest ahead of me too.

Good night Dave. Hope all goes well for you.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESah!! *cough*

There is a side to America I just dont understand at all, its to do with race- this extract from a Fox News reaction piece to the election highlights it-

"Obama’s key groups made the difference -- both in their makeup of the electorate and, for the most part, their strength of support for him.
Non-whites made up 28 percent of the electorate, up a bit from 27 percent in 2008. This group largely backed Obama: 71 percent of Hispanics (it was 67 percent last time), and 93 percent of blacks (down a touch from 95 percent)
Republican challenger Mitt Romney won among white voters by 20 percentage points. That’s up from John McCain’s edge of +12 points in 2008. In addition, the share of votes cast by whites was lower (72 percent) than it has been going back to at least 1992."

Whats the point of this?- if they all have the vote then they are all Americans, thats it. Not Hispanics, Latinos, African-Americans- Americans.

I mean what the hell is an African-American? You dont get African-Scots- you just get Scots. You are either Scottish or not, what colour you are, where your ancestors came from its totally irrelevant.
And its both sides- blacks in America divide themselves apart from other Americans by identifying themselves as something seperate, and whites then act hostily towards what seems a distinctly different racial group- when in fact they are all just Americans.

I dont get why Americans do this- divide themselves up this way with stupid titles and claims- we all came from Africa, just a matter of when. Its irrelevant. You are all Americans- deal with it!
Right, crabbit rant over, that feels better thats been bugging me about America all election.

I'm guessing the immigrant population is a smaller fraction in Scotland, so groups have assimilated rather than formed their own identities. Sort of like catholics and protestants in Ireland - if one group was a tenth the size these things would never happen.

Your view of the world is nice and ideal, but it won't always happen. Also, if it happens too much you risk losing cultural variety. I love that in New York you can visit a half dozen countries in a single day. If the cultures seem different, they'll vote different; simple as that.

African-American is just a more politically correct term for black people. The actual cause of the racial divide in America has way more to do with the fact that slavery was legal 150 years ago that segregation remained a matter of government policy until the 1950s and '60s -- and the long, ugly legacy that leaves -- than the words people use.

Edit: I hope this doesn't come off as snappy, but between election news and last-minute cramming for my test I barely slept last night and I am incredibly exhausted right now.

I get the desire to hold onto cultural differences- thats going to be true of the first few generations of any immigrant group- but the ideal is that the new culture blends with the old to be just a part of the current culture- what it means to be Scottish has changed over the years as different cultural interactions have happened- America has the potential to do that on a much greater scale.

The bit I dont get is the self splitting part- the delibrate segregation of yourself from other 'types' of Americans. It can only cause divisions and foster ideas of 'us and them'.
Which is exactly what it appears to be doing.

Eldo- how does that explain hearing about Latnios and Hispanics all the time- they were not a part of the slavery culture the blacks were, yet they self identify themselves as a seperate Latino or Hispanic American as does the media.

They weren't, but by the time the Hispanic population in the U.S. started to increase U.S. racial attitudes had already been developed. A lot of immigrant communities banded together in the 19th century especially because they were largely looked down on and mistreated by the Anglo-whites* who had immigrated earlier. I'm sure that part of it was also the desire to preserve ones original culture though, as Halfwise alludes to.

*I specify Anglo because even groups from elsewhere in Europe were also marginalized.

NB I hope this doesn't come off as brief either (not sure if you saw my other edit).

No worries Eldo- your posts have been to the point and no harm there.
The whole race thing in America just seems to me like it is self perpetuating, and its being done by all sides to themselves- and in identifying themselves this way all it does is make divisions seem greater. It wont improve anything.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I get the desire to hold onto cultural differences- thats going to be true of the first few generations of any immigrant group- but the ideal is that the new culture blends with the old to be just a part of the current culture- what it means to be Scottish has changed over the years as different cultural interactions have happened- America has the potential to do that on a much greater scale.

I think the mistake is in talking about the 'current culture'. As if there were one single culture. There's two dreams about culture in America: one is that all will blend into one, and the other is that all the cultures can exist but have some glue that helps them get along and work together. America (and much of Europe as I see now happening) is less of a melting pot and more of a chunky stew. Having experienced the chunky stew I prefer it to the French puree style of soup, it's more interesting. Yes, it also causes conflict but that's the trade-off. Most of the conflict comes from white America assuming they are the 'current culture'. Other types of conflict (multi lingual government forms, signage, etc) have to be worked out.

Notice the crowds at the respective Presidential get togethers? The Republicans were spiffily dressed and predominantly white. The Democrats nicely and variously dressed and predominantly all the colours of the racial rainbow. America is a great chunky stew with plenty of gravy (apparently! ). Eru Bless America! The sooner humans see themselves as humans first and as Muslims, Turks, Asians, Hindus, Ozhobbits, African-Americans, Aboriginals, Mormons ecetera second, the better.

I know Eldo doesn't like America very much, but I think America is leading the way as far as accepting ALL humans as having merit and good things to offer - if they can put their religious/cultural beliefs second sometimes and look at the common good. (This does not mean that every American is a good person, 'cause many clearly aren't very tolerant). This does not mean one can't remember or should disrespect where they came from (a knowledge of history is good), but just accept that change happens, and if it's positive change then exceeeeeelent!

Oh yes... and down with Religionism, Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Anarchism, Feminism, Redneckism etcetera etcetera... and up with Fairgoism.

I dont see the problem. The News is full of these demographics, whether it be on race or sex. They need to know who is voting and why. For example women vote for Obama. Why is that they wonder, and they find out that women feel secure with Obama because he wont interfere with their reproductive rights like Romney would. Young people vote for Obama because he is more liberal about gay stuff. Latin people all have concerns about the illegal immigrant laws. So no matter how you cut it, these things matter. Its nothing to do with being an American. Its about politicians knowing how to reach differing voters.

Orwell wrote:I know Eldo doesn't like America very much, but I think America is leading the way as far as accepting ALL humans as having merit and good things to offer - if they can put their religious/cultural beliefs second sometimes and look at the common good. (This does not mean that every American is a good person, 'cause many clearly aren't very tolerant). This does not mean one can't remember or should disrespect where they came from (a knowledge of history is good), but just accept that change happens, and if it's positive change then exceeeeeelent!

Because clearly the reason I made this thread and was giddily posting updates every 10 minutes is because I hate America so much. Believe it or not I am actually rather fond of my country and I do think there's a lot of good here. If I seem especially critical to you it's because the political culture here discourages certain types of criticism and I'm just venting a bit. I just find the "America: love it or leave it" attitude to be counterproductive and, in fact, downright un-American!

Mrs Figg wrote: I dont see the problem. The News is full of these demographics, whether it be on race or sex. They need to know who is voting and why. For example women vote for Obama. Why is that they wonder, and they find out that women feel secure with Obama because he wont interfere with their reproductive rights like Romney would. Young people vote for Obama because he is more liberal about gay stuff. Latin people all have concerns about the illegal immigrant laws. So no matter how you cut it, these things matter. Its nothing to do with being an American. Its about politicians knowing how to reach differing voters.

Perzactly.

Though I think Petty's point was less about why the divisions are being looked at in elections and more about why the divisions seem to be so strong and persistent.

Mrs Figg: "I dont see the problem. The News is full of these demographics, whether it be on race or sex. They need to know who is voting and why. For example women vote for Obama. Why is that they wonder, and they find out that women feel secure with Obama because he wont interfere with their reproductive rights like Romney would. Young people vote for Obama because he is more liberal about gay stuff. Latin people all have concerns about the illegal immigrant laws. So no matter how you cut it, these things matter. Its nothing to do with being an American. Its about politicians knowing how to reach differing voters."

I'm starting a new party, Mrs Figg. The Fairgo Party. I've sent a letter to Obama already to see if he wants to join. I've no doubt he will.

Eldo: "Because clearly the reason I made this thread and was giddily posting updates every 10 minutes is because I hate America so much. Believe it or not I am actually rather fond * of my country and I do think there's a lot of good here. If I seem especially critical to you it's because the political culture here discourages certain types of criticism and I'm just venting a bit. I just find the "America: love it or leave it" attitude to be counterproductive and, in fact, downright un-American!"

You are Free to love or hate your country, Eldo. FREEE!




*'rather fond' and not 'in love with'?

There, there, Orwell.

The problem with being in love with your country is you become blind to its faults. Okay with people, not so good with a country.

Halfwise puts it better than me. Thanks!

Eldo has every right to be proud of being American. Its a great country.
and I am proud of being English, and I aint ashamed to say its a great country too.

and I suppose the Ozzies are quite nice too.
and the Ffyordlandians.



all the rest are shit.





joking

Mrs Figg: you didnt mention the Scots, (hee hee)