Inaugural purist thread

[Eldorion]

The Scouring of the Shire should have been included.

[Ringdrotten]

I'll have you Purists for this!

[Gandalf's Beard]

The Scouring of the Shire should have been included.

It would have been anticlimactic.

(Isn't this great? It wasn't worth rehashing old arguments on the last forum as we'd already had them. I guess we'll have to get them going again so newbies can have a crack at them. ).


GB

[Eldorion]

Well now that GB split out the Scouring stuff, what do we do here?

Perhaps I shall defend the honor of the 'moderate' purist position against Petty and Odo. (Where is Odo, anyway?)

[Gandalf's Beard]

Ooops, I thought my last post would start the new thread.

I just figured the Scouring is a topic unto itself. These threads should probably just be a place to heckle each other.

GB

[Eldorion]

Sounds good. And yes, the innaugural threads are shaping up to be rather silly.

[Gandalf's Beard]

I expect Odo will be along soon enough (and Biffo and Wisey and Mirabella etc ).

GB

[Kafria]

I think I'm going to like you having old arguments again - I get to join in!!

[Eldorion]

Yes, I hope the entire Banks clan shows up. I suspect that Planet Tolkien might not like having so many different aspects of the same personality around, but I love it.

[Eldorion]

I think I'm going to like you having old arguments again - I get to join in!!

We should bring back the Faramir debate then, that was my first ever disagreement with GB! A portent of things to come.

[Gandalf's Beard]

Hey Kafria. Why don't you copy and paste your post onto the Scouring of the Shire thread. Then you can delete it here. (save me some Mod time ).


GB

[Ringdrotten]

Indeed, the adaptation of Faramir makes a nice discussion

[Orwell]

Indeed, the adaptation of Faramir makes a nice discussion

I can't believe you ever got away with saying that, Ringo!

[Lancebloke]

I quite like these kind of threads... arguing is one of my favourite things to do.

Maybe someone should set an agenda! My agenda item would be 'Army of the Dead: Green, Mean and waste of a Scene?'

I have plenty more to offer up.

Re the scouring - should have been included on the DVDs/Blu Rays as an extra, would have given the films far too much to cover otherwise.

Re Faramir - he was an idiot in the films and it made the plot make no sense.

[Orwell]

Re the scouring - should have been included on the DVDs/Blu Rays as an extra, would have given the films far too much to cover otherwise.

Either that, or put it in the film in the first place and do the right thing by Tolkien (and people who prefer Great stories Greatly filmed).

Re Faramir - he was an idiot in the films and it made the plot make no sense.

Yes - yes ---- and yes! "Idiot" is the word!

[Mrs Figg]

Faramir was Boromir Lite, without the charm or the balls. and he should have had dark hair.

The green army of he dead killed off the tension of the battle, we didnt actually see them do anything, no sense of the following army of dread behind Aragorn. we should have seen them up close and personal in Minas Tirith, imagine an orc just about to kill a Gondorian, and behind him looms this shadow of fear and dread, the Gondorian cowers in terror, which is worse? orc or ghostie? it destroys orc, it looks at quivering Gondorian with sadness and disappears.

[Eldorion]

Maybe someone should set an agenda! My agenda item would be 'Army of the Dead: Green, Mean and waste of a Scene?'

Never thought I'd see this thread resurrected...

[halfwise]

"Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned."

One of my favorite lines cut out, still sends chills up my spine.

[Orwell]

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, Eldo.

[Pettytyrant101]

The whole Paths of the Dead/Army of the Dead is so appalingly handled it borders on farce. Gone is all the fear in the book- why not keep in the scene where they find the guy trying to claw his way through the door? Creepy as hell- no lets have Gimli comically crunching over bones and cringing instead!!!!!
And the whole Dead arriving at Pellenor takes away all the jeopardy of it in an instance. From the moment they arrive its over, the battles won. Pathetic.

[halfwise]

ditto, ditto, ditto. Did they even have the flags changing? Sigh.

So long as I ignore the fact that it's supposed to be Lord of the Rings I enjoy what they did with Mumakil, though. Yes, even the Leggy moment. But it takes a deft bit of amnesia.

[Orwell]

This all brings back a certain anxiety that always comes back when I think of LotR and what PJ will do to The Hobbit...

[Pettytyrant101]

I enjoy what they did with Mumakil, though. Yes, even the Leggy moment.- Halfwise

I can enjoy aspects of the Mumakil bit purely as spectacular cinema- particularly the opening engagement. Large chunks of it just make me cringe however, the Leggy moment and Eowyn hacking down the Mumakil being two of them.
But my main problem with it is to do with how I see the duty of the adaptors. In my view one of the first things an adaptor should do is break down the original and see how it works.
One of the things Tolkien is notable for is he knows how a battle works and he goes to some lengths to rpepresent them as military engagements. A solid grounding in reality.
When adapting Tolkien I believe it is no less important this aspect be represented, no less so than any other in his work and should be adapted as faithfully as possible- not turned into the opening of Empire Strikes Back with Mumakil and horses instead of AT-AT's and Snowspeeders.
Give me the homestead dotted Pelennor, house to house fighting, fire trenches, some semblence of tactics (on either side) Aragorn meeting Eomer in the midst of the battle field whilst the day is still in the balance and the blood lust of battle is on them. The Haradrim Captain under his standard being recklessly set upon by an enraged grief stricken Eomer after he has found Eowyn with his men riding with him chanting 'Death!'
I could do without the PJ spectacle if I got that because for all the in the moment adrenlain pumping of it you don't really care. You never feel that Legolas is in any actual danger, or Gimli, or Aragorn, especially not as one is Legolas has morphed into superelf and they have an invincible army of dead with them. All the emotional anxiety of the book, the tension, the horror of it is completely lost.
In a different sort of film, not LotR's it would be fine popcorn stuff, but this is LotR's and it deserved more respect and gravitas than that.

[Mrs Figg]

I think they should have cut out chunks of the TT to fit all that in, I would have cut all the escaping kids, Aragorn falling over a cliff rubbish to fit in more of the battle in front of Pellenor fields, even though it meant that TT and ROTK ended and started at different points, just so that if they didnt have time to fit everything in in ROTK it made a better film all round. I would love to have seen all the things you described, from the moment they entered the Paths of the Dead to the battle I would have done that section again, without the green mist and Eowyn chopping Mumakil, I did like some bits though, I thought Theodens death scene was moving and Eomers grief, that still makes me weepy. I also liked the charge of the Rohirrim, that still gives me goosewobbles, parts of it were so good it seems criminal they didnt go the whole hog.

[Pettytyrant101]

There is a place for spectacle in a LotR's film- Tolkien gives plenty without the need for Pj to add layers more- the Charge is a good example of that (and it is undeniably superbly shot), but as always with PJ he seems to have no idea of the difference between the spectacle supporting the narrative and it overwhelming it.


"they should have cut out chunks of the TT to fit all that in, I would
have cut all the escaping kids, Aragorn falling over a cliff rubbish to
fit in more of the battle in front of Pellenor fields, even though it
meant that TT and ROTK ended and started at different points"- Mrs Figg

You really need to see my edits Mrs Figg as all those things are gone and my verisons ends where the book does for both story lines (and yes you can do it in 3 hours if you cut all the PJ crap out-although my version is not quite to scrict and is about 3hrs 15 I think).