RIP

Nelson Mandela died today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520

I was just reading about that. "RIP" seems a rather empty memorial to such a life, but there's not much more I can offer. So RIP, Mr Mandela, and may your legacy of reconciliation live on both in South Africa and in the rest of the world.

I would like to remember him as he was many years ago when he was happy and laughing. The final years were horrible to watch, poor man.

Yeah, living to 95 is an accomplishment for anyone, but he didn't seem to be doing so good in the few photos we got of him recently. I'm glad he's not suffering anymore.

I agree, Figg.

With someone like Mandela who lived their life to the fullness and lenght he did, it is perhaps better to remember and celebrate the good things they achieved rather than grieve their passing.

Just heard the news, That was a surprise ! but, 95yrs old is a good achievement ! And thankfully the suffering has passed. Ive known people with lung/respiratory problems & their journey to the end was unpleasant, sometimes you really do wish for an injection that will ease the way, sounds horrible & morbid but so is watching & feeling & being helpless & useless. sorry.

He actually did his first US interview with Ted Koppel at the college I work at, just a few blocks away. I wasn't there of course, but I still like the connection, for even now I remember the impression that interview made. He had a sort of magnetic dignity which I think caught people by surprise.

RIP Mandela- we will just brush all the terrorism stuff under the carpet and not talk about that bit  

Actually most of the obituaries I've read of Mandela so far have referenced his militant activity.  The one exception that I saw was The New York Times, who initially referred to him as an "icon of peaceful resistance" before quickly replacing that headline. But really, Mandela is the perfect example of why the word "terrorist" is meaningless: it's entirely synonymous with "freedom fighter" except for whether or not you agree with the person's aims.  And if you're looking for a situation in which armed resistance is justified, then Apartheid-era South Africa is a pretty good example.

Edit: and Mandela's most enduring legacy has been encouraging reconciliation after his release from prison and overseeing the peaceful transition of power, which goes a long way towards making up for any previous misdeeds.  I wouldn't call him a saint, but that doesn't mean that he did nothing heroic or admirable.

it's entirely synonymous with "freedom fighter" - Eldo

Thats was my point- recent and current western governments have all sorts of problems morally and just in terms of definition when it comes to what is a 'terrorist.'

They would rather I suspect we didnt think of men who used the means of terrorism to successfully bring about peace.
Bit like how to this day the UK government refuse to admit the IRA campaigns played any part in bringing the government to the negotiating table- even though everyone knows if the IRA hadnt existed there would be no devolved government in NI today.

But if you lost a child or a parent or a partner to an IRA bombing its probably bloody hard to see them as men of peace.
I dare say there was those who had cause to curse Mandella and his party too.

Ah, I misinterpreted your earlier post, then.  I agree, armed campaigns are typically shunted off to the side (if they can be).  Even in cases like India, where the poster child of nonviolent resistance, Gandhi, is basically universally credited as the bringer of independence, the situation is more complicated.  Gandhi was indeed a pacifist (to a fault: he advocated nonviolent resistance to the Holocaust) and played a major role in Indian independence.  But part of the reason the British were willing to negotiate with him at all is because he was better (for them) than the alternative, which was negotiating with the armed Indian groups.

Obviously any group like this, no matter what their goals are, is going to cause human pain and suffering.  That's not something to celebrate, and I don't mean to disparage the suffering of anyone's family.  But I suspect that most people would, if pushed, agree to at least some scenarios where violent resistance is justified.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:RIP Mandela- we will just brush all the terrorism stuff under the carpet and not talk about that bit  

Kind of like Gandhi's racism?

yeah.. so sad Mandela died  i remember he waved at me..

I only recently heard of this, so it's a bit delayed. But R.I.P. Elwood, the world's ugliest dog (2007, according to the contest held in Petaluma, California).
Elwood, a Chinese Crested/Chihuahua mixed-breed, died November 28. He was 8 years old.

I never did get to meet him, but I like to think that he was an affectionate pup.

Because actual important people have been tributed in this thread, I will hide his face from the merely casual reader.

Spoiler:

Norc wrote:yeah.. so sad Mandela died  i remember he waved at me..

Oh, was that at that concert? Well, at least you'll have a good memory to cherish.  



Petty; Isn't it better to forgive the mistakes people make in the exhuburance of youth? When Mandela got the position he did in South Africa after the fall of Apartheid and it really mattered, he decided to become a beacon of humanity and peace. That's the light I will remember him in.

that dog died on my birthday..

yes, it was that concert

Isn't it better to forgive the mistakes people make in the exuberance of youth? - Blue

I dont think its a matter of judgement or forgiveness- more a matter of not painting the man in only one or two shades.
We learn nothing from history if we only tell the version of it we want to hear.

That is indeed an ugly dog.

Bluebottle wrote:Petty; Isn't it better to forgive the mistakes people make in the exhuburance of youth? When Mandela got the position he did in South Africa after the fall of Apartheid and it really mattered, he decided to become a beacon of humanity and peace. That's the light I will remember him in.

I think that his actions were a little more than "the exuberance of youth".  Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK), the ANC's militant wing that Mandela co-founded when he was in his 40s, was responsible for the deaths of children and other innocent people.  This is not a slur against MK, but a matter of historical record, and the same could be said of the armies of most modern states.  I think it does a disservice both to Mandela's own memory and to the memory of everyone in South Africa at the time to brush the more distasteful elements of the struggle under the rug.

That said, Mandela absolutely deserves credit for overseeing the peaceful transition of power after his release from prison and for working to prevent a civil war.

RIP Peter O'Toole.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/dec/15/peter-o-toole-dies-lawrence-arabia

 

Very few like him, possibly nobody like him in these less elegant days.

Shame. Still, he had a long and worthy life.

This reminded me of a story Peter Sellers told about O'Toole in a Parkinson interview I saw a while ago.

  That is sad ! I so enjoyed his films, I liked the way he spoke ! He had a charm, a cheeky charm. One of my many favourite films of Peter O'Toole

Satirist John Fortune has died aged 74.

I loved his work on Bremmer, Bird and Fortune- a great critical comedic voice of British politics has left us   

thats sad.

It is. I dont like hearing of all these people popping off at Christmas time. Its often the old school comedians I miss the most.