Quantum Physics

Yeah, except that these other universes aren't logically required, they are just logically possible.

Im not a fan of the this universe was ceated by other universes thing- i just shifts the question down a few tortoises.
Instead of how did this universe start we have how did all these other ones start?
Before you know it you are trying to trace all of them back to an initail point and all youve really done is count a lot of tortoises.

I cant get my round the fact that there was nothing and then there was something, how did the something develop from nothing if there was nothing?

I could just say "quantum fluctuation" and nod my head knowingly (and I won't be the first one), but that's just a cop out. I could argue that energy conservation only applies within a universe, not to the creation of new ones. Then I'd be forced to admit that new universes could be boiling up all the time. I'd have to concede the idea unleashes chaos, which is a piss-poor way of explaining anything, much less the creation of the universe. And yet, having no-where else to go, and relying on the principle that big words might scare away further questions:

Quantum fluctuation.

so if time was invented with the BB and there was no time before how can we know and quantify how long the nothing was nothing before the BB?

ya don't.

Actually time is one of the most problematic things in physics. We use it, make equations about it, but fundamentally don't know what it is. Since time and space are tied together in relativity, it's believed it doesn't exist with no universe. But who knows?

so let me get this straight.
there could have been infinite Nothing with no time no space no matter and no way of knowing where or what or how long it had existed. It could have been infinite nothing. and then a few billion years ago the smallest speck of Something just appeared from Nothing and it exploded for some weird reason. then it expanded and basically invented Everything. The universe was born and has epanded ever since getting faster and faster. there is an end to this universe but we dont know if the Nothing is at the end of it. we also dont know what DM and DE are. they could be Something they could be Nothing, and they could both destroy the universe.

Got plenty of wild ass theories though. The only constraint is they've gotta be somehow extrapolated from what we DO know.

religion is far less weird than all that so called real science stuff, maybe thats the problem, its too logical? theres a reason for it, whereas real timey wimey stuff has to rhyme or reason and the reasoning if there is any. is way beyond human brainpower to understand, but maybe that means the impossible is possible, so maybe religion is based on something what we would call real. being impossible. kinda.

My problem with a belief in God is not the belief in God- its the claim certain people know what God is, what he wants and how he wants us all to live or he will punish us in pain for all eternity. And if we question the people telling us they know all this we are told we need faith and just to trust them (and give them money)- which is just another way of saying just believe what I say.
Thats what I have a problem with.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:My problem with a belief in God is not the belief in God- its the claim certain people know what God is, what he wants and how he wants us all to live or he will punish us in pain for all eternity. And if we question the people telling us they know all this we are told we need faith and just to trust them (and give them money)- which is just another way of saying just believe what I say.
Thats what I have a problem with.

the lord's work

so basically you have a problem with people? because its their self interested interpretation of religion, not religion itself? or the possibility of a Higher Being?

I suspect Petty is like me in not seeing a separation between people and religion, assuming it to be a product of people rather than an independent reality.

But I'll sit tight and see what the crabbitmeister says.

Indeed Halfwise- in a sense there is nothing spiritual in religion- it is a man made thing- conceived of, added to, controlled by and invented by people (mainly men to be honest)
Religons are social constructs- they are political also and they are, like all other human organisations, self serving and interested in having power and authority over people.
If there is some sort of purpose to the universe, some motivation or creator behind it- in my view the last place you will find anything out about that is in the worlds religions. Thats not really what they for.

I think religion has a lot of logical functions and uses. Ceremonies are important for people, births, marriages etc, and people need comfort in terrible times. I think there was religion of sorts before it became political and used for control. Aborigines and other ancient peoples right from the beginning of human consciousness have all worshiped Higher Beings, whether its the Sun or a tree. I think we are hardwired for spirituality like we are hardwired to appreciate music and dancing or art. I find those hand paintings on the caves really fascinating, they were made thousands of years ago for perhaps religious or artistic purposes.

I dont disagree Mrs Figg about the human need for comfort through community ceremony and ritual- but I think its a simple animal function.
There was an experiment done with crows- they had a food dispenser, but they only dispensed food to the crows if they first turned a full crcle to their left then pecked the feeder, then turned to the right and pecked it- upon which food would be distributed.
Soon all the crows were perfomring this 'ritual' to get food- and the important thing is, they continued to do so even after they stopped the food being dispensed that way- they were essentailly acting on faith- that performing the ritual would produce the desired result.

Fo me human ritual is just a more complex expression of the same animal behaviour.

Thats not to say ritual cannot have an effect- in that sense it seems to operate similary to how a placebo drug does- you think yourself successful or better because of a belief the ritual is doing it- when in fact the only purpose the acts of the ritual actually serve is to convince you its doing anything at all.
And I speak with a bit of experience here from practisicing Circle Magic, which is very ritualistic and other ceremonies I have attended or performed (including religous ones in churches and WIccan ones and Casteneda inspired ones).

I also supsect that the political/socal control side has been there from the begining- or at least since tribal times anyway.
The Shaman didnt have to work like everyone else, go out foraging or hunting- theirs was a privelaged position, they got food without having to get their own food, a big deal if you think about it- and as soon as your religous figure in your community starts getting a say in things like who will be in chage of the tribe it inevitably becomes political and therefore open to corruption- I suspect it did not take humans long to cotton on to that given our history and before you know it you have State Gods (as early as 4000bc in Sumeria where each city state had its own God).

I dont dispute the possibilty of a God in the sense that its a big comlex universe and we dont have anything like all the answers to it yet- so there is room for a God in that sense. I am not an aethiest, I am agnostic.

I do dispute the liklihood that such a God would have a son born into our one little world in the unfashionable western spiral arm of our one galaxy and make it all so ambigous and farfetched sounding its unlikely to be beileved without buring alive first anyone who disagrees.
I also find it unlikely God wrote a book telling us all how to live that bears a suspicously similar air to exactly what the people of that time thought about the world.
Now if the Bible gave guidance on the morality of stem cell research, cloning, nuclear weapons, explained evolution in the creation story and DNA and told us about the Big Bang and how it all started- that would seem like a book to help us written by an omipotent all seeing God who can perceive all of human time.
What He actually wrote is oddly enough exactly what people wrongly thought at the time the book was written- bit coincidental that wouldnt you say?

I think that crow experiment is completely different, thats a learned skill and reward not ritual. its carrot and stick, its nothing to do with our need for religion. I think our need for religion goes way beyond carrot and stick.

we may be in an obsure angle of the galaxy but maybe God chose us because there aint anyone else out there. Its a possibility that any other life forms would be incapable of comprehending God. The other life forms may be animals or bugs or who knows what. How many creatures out there could even want, need a God? I(ts got to be pretty rare.

its carrot and stick- Mrs Figg

So is a lot of religion.

Imagine you are a farmer in the middle ages-and your harvest fails. What do you do?
You go to the Church.
They tell you you must have displeased God, or are not be being pious enough. So you make a donation of money to the Church, you do the rituals; praying, rosary beads, hair shirt for a year.

And low and behold you get a good harvest.

3 years later your crop fails again? What do you do? You go back to the Church and go through the same rituals again.

This time though your crop fails again.

So you go back to the Church.

They tell you you have not done enough this time to please God. So you give a bigger donation. You do more rituals.

Humans will keep going back at every failure until the crop is good again- and like the crow they will believe it is doing the rituals that made it happen.


Life could be very common out there- it looks like it can be spread about by asteroids and other debris too.
And now we have evidence that not only did Mars once have water but it was drinkable water too. Thats two planets just in our one solar system which have had the conditions suitable for life to start and evolve.
I think its statistically likely life is common in the universe.

Besides if youre God why would you build a universe of this immense mind boggling scale to keep us on one planet in? Thats mad. Its like building the whole solar system because you needed somewhere to keep an atom.

If there's a God then I think he/she/it enjoys watching us little ones trying to figure out how it all works. You know, like the Moff.

We are animals. And 90% of the cells in our body are bacterias. Understanding and knowledge is the key and we don't know shit about anything. Isn't it exciting?!

I really dont agree that it can all be reduced to simple biology or survival strategies. Why do humans need or like to dance? all humans do in their own way, dance. Its something that draws you and you feel the need to move to a beat, why do African drums have an irresistible beat, why does Irish music make you tap your feet? its not necessary for survival is it? Dancing has no biological imperative. So looking at a landscape or a flower or the Sea and finding them beautiful. Appreciating beauty has no biological imperative either. Our ancestors didnt need the appreciation of beauty to survive, but yet they drew some of the most beautiful figures of animals ever made by man, in caves in Lascaux 20 thousand years ago. They were not just animals they had hunted and eaten, they were lovingly painted with great delicacy and I would say love of the beauty of the creatures. I think some things you cant reduce to bacteria and animal biology.

Animals also actually dance to, Ive seen it with my friends dog, & my loopy-doopy cat sits by my stereo listening to music & looks happy about it. When it goes off,she curls up in the bedroom, I cant answer why she does ? Can we ever understand if animals DO enjoy beauty of one kind or another ? Is their idea of beauty completely different to ours ? And why do we enjoy listening to stories as we do ? aS a child we want a bedtime story & it helps us drift off. As adults,way back in time, we gathered together & listened to an Elder reading Saga's & legends to us. That is all a Father,Vicar, nun, or priest is doing ? Im wondering if the "Planet of the Apes" films are trying to ask questions & give ideas ? I have to say,I believe more on the side that we are chemical/biological organisms. And sometimes those genes etc break down, become mutated & thats why we have deformaties, disease etc. Not because you didnt pray enough, not because you didnt sacrifice enough. Slowly,over the passage of time, weve realised burning a few ladies at the stake or be-heading children ISNT going to make crops grow healthier ! IMO "we" are finding out more scientific facts that disspell any form of a "God". I think a God is just a "wall painting" or mirror of our own desires & wishes, & greed. We give it a name that allows us to behave in a certain way so as not to be held accountable & punished. The head of this "Religion" cant be a human, that would mean that the human could be disthroned & even killed, it has to be something untouchable yet carries a great deal of threat, we call it "God". God will save us & wipe us clean of our Earthly sins, that suggests we are all going to sin,its enevitable. We are all innocent & perfect then till we reach awareness. We dont lie or steal or kill. That comes with experiance. But you dont need a "God" for that. Its our survival gene kicking in or we & other creatures would have died out by now ? And bacteria is a life form, just to small to our eyes,but its there.

good points Azriel, I think we need God like we need governments. Without them would be chaos and dog eat dog. We need order and rules like children need order and rules to abide otherwise they grow up savage without restraint. We need to impose on societies rules of behaviour otherwise we could be cannibals or other atrocities. I seriously think we actually need religion or spirituality for non biological or non political or survival purposes as well. I think we need something more something mysterious and something to aspire to. Leaving aside humans corruption of religion for their own selfish purposes, I mean spirituality itself. I mean a connection to our Earth as a living organism whether its a Druid or a Catholic.

even atheists have to admit that most charitable work and contributions are organized through religious organizations. The United Nations funds and other organizations like Doctors without Borders, Amnesty International, etc may be high profile and end up with larger sums of money in aggregate, but when you break it down to the fraction of salary money donated to mission work inside their individual communities, it's a much larger donation.