Re: Gif thread

[chris63]

[CC12 35]

It depends what you define as sexism- when a woman pinched my bum at work when I was bending down? Is that sexism?

no. arugably the double standards of the act is but its meh compared to the everyday sexism, misogyny, rape and gender domestic violence suffered by women across the globe

One of the big problems comes from the fact that sex is more physically based for men, more emotionally based for women. This means women are more likely to feel emotionally violated, which is worse than being physically violated.

Mix this with a male dominated power structure and women definitely are more likely to end up on the wrong end of things.

but men are just as capable as an emotional disconnect. most men sleepwalk into sexism why else would they behave as they do

In the past men took woman they wanted- to the conquerer the spoils- in the modern world all western legal systems regonise a woman has to give consent for sex to take place or its a very serious criminal offence. A man must gain a womans consent before he has the right to attempt to breed. Who has the power there?

Yeah, I miss the good ol' days when men didn't have to worry if women consented to sex. What kind of whore insists on that? Damn power-hungry sluts.

Spoiler:

if you dont think sexism, victim blaming & rape culture exists and women have the power because of rape protection laws your wrong

[Eldorion]

Are you guys familiar with reductio ad absurdum?

I mean seriously, we've all been posting on this forum for several years, you don't think I honestly believe that, do you? Especially given the part in spoilers. Cause if you do I've messed up somewhere along the line.

[chris63]

Music seems to go with gifs

[Pettytyrant101]

if you dont think sexism, victim blaming & rape culture exists and women have the power because of rape protection laws your wrong -CC

They have the power in law- at least techniquely if not always in practise- it i symbolic of a concerted effort across the years to do something about the things you highlight- I am sure you would not rather we went back to where the laws only real concern about a woman was instructions on how big a stick you were allowed to beat her with.

My point was that things are moving on, slowly maybe but they do change, in some parts of the world faster than others.

And when woman act as badly towards men - and if you think there are not women out there who beat their partners and mentally torture them then you are mistaken- then the case is as well as lost. There is no point in just tippign the balance the other way.


I love how this post implies that women never initiate sex and/or that they wouldn't have to obtain consent if they did.- Eldo

I have been fortunate enough to have sex initiated by the female at poiints throughout my life Eldo- not a one of them ever even thought of asking my consent- they just assumed Iwas up for it, as it were, and they were right too. But asking for consent, no, never heard of a woman asking a man for consent.They just take it as read you want to have sex with them.

[Eldorion]

I have been fortunate enough to have sex initiated by the female at poiints throughout my life Eldo- not a one of them ever even thought of asking my consent- they just assumed Iwas up for it, as it were, and they were right too. But asking for consent, no, never heard of a woman asking a man for consent.They just take it as read you want to have sex with them.

Do you think that this holds true for all women anywhere? Because your posts in this thread come across as implying that.

[Pettytyrant101]

No idea Eldo- I cannot speak for women everywhere as I havent slept with them all!
I can only speak from my own experiences over 40 years of life- and I have yet to meet a woman who asks if the man consensts to have sex with her.
Maybe its different in the US- maybe women do ask men if they consent to sex before the act. But it doesnt happen here that Ive ever heard.

And a quick unscientific straw poll of the males currently online on my messenger returns the result none of them has ever been asked for consent for sex from a woman (and weve about 160 years experience between us!)

[CC12 35]

it's pretty obvious when a man wants 2 have sex. and as you've said you consented she was obviously right

and feminists aren't immune to sexism towards male rape victims. but sexism against women is on so many levels compared 2 sexism against men

[Pettytyrant101]

but sexism against women is on so many levels compared 2 sexism against men- CC

I am not arguing against that CC- only saying that things are at least trying to move in the right direction and in the last few hundred years have moved further than in the previous 2000 at least.
Is there a long way still to go- yes. But recognising crimes against women in law has to be a starting point. Protecting womens rights in law has to be a good thing surely. Even if its still not anything like effective enough.
But its not just a change in attitude that is required. We can never get away from the fact we are another animal and our primary aim in life is to breed and pass our genetic material on to the next generation.
Thats such a strong drive it makes salmon swim extrodinary distances to spawn, it makes birds cross the globe to get a bit, it drives males of all sorts of species to fight, sometimes to the death to see who has the right to breed- there is a huge, incredibly powerful natural urge driving human sexual interactions.
Its not as staright forward sadly as reasoon would have it.

[Eldorion]

Fortunately us humans are quite a bit more sophisticated than birds or salmon.

[Pettytyrant101]

Thats on a sliding scale though Eldo- some more so than others, some people are more likely to act on those instincts than others. And all sorts of things play a part in that from genetics to education to upbringng to role models and plenty more- its horribly complicated.
I think it would be a mistake I think, almost a Christian one, to assume we are somehow comletely different from every other animal on the planet.
And the global stats on crmies against women would seem to imply we are not all that different.

[Pettytyrant101]

it's pretty obvious when a man wants 2 have sex.- CC

Just noticed if you reverse this line its - its pretty obvious when a woman wants too havesex'- something I believe that has been used by men to defend against a rape charge. 'She was clearly up for it your honour.'

How come its ok if said by a woman about a man however?

[CC12 35]

so your saying the natural state of a man is that of a rapist


rape can't be a natural masculine urge in humanity or it would be even more prevalent. it is a perversion of society

[CC12 35]

it's pretty obvious when a man wants 2 have sex.- CC

Just noticed if you reverse this line its - its pretty obvious when a woman wants too havesex'- something I believe that has been used by men to defend against a rape charge. 'She was clearly up for it your honour.'

How come its ok if said by a woman about a man however?

i didn't say it was ok for a women to use that as a defence if she raped a man. but if the man consented non verbally that is still consent.

the defence is normally used by men who have raped drunk women in short skirts who cannot consent

[Eldorion]

Thats on a sliding scale though Eldo- some more so than others, some people are more likely to act on those instincts than others.

Yes, and we have places where we lock up people who act on their more repulsive instincts, because we as a society hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals.

[Eldorion]

i didn't say it was ok for a women to use that as a defence if she raped a man. but if the man consented non verbally that is still consent.

I'm no expert on feminist theory, but I would imagine that non-verbal consent is the norm regardless of which gender the initiating partner is, especially if both partners know each other.

[Pettytyrant101]

so your saying the natural state of a man is that of a rapist - CC

No I am not saying its a natural state- I am saying in humanities past men probably competed for women like most other large mammals do. They fought each other, proved their worth and took the females to breed with as the prize.

The woman of that time would no more have seen it as rape than a herd of mammals does now when it still happens in lower animals.
It was a natural state.

Since then human brains have greatly developed and so has our abilty to reason, to think about ourselves.
New types of social releationship came into being.
But the animal urges still remain the same driving it no matter what reason makes of it.
Men till compete among themselves- showing off, getting in fights, doing stupid things to impress girls.
Women still display, putting lipstick on is thought to be done because it reminds the male of a vagina pumped with blood from sexual arousal.
Both sides still carry around and act out things based on our long legacy on the planet. It would I think be foolish when trying to deal with the problems that causes to pretend we dont have that animal side to us.


"that non-verbal consent is the norm regardless of which gender the initiating partner is, especially if both partners know each other."- Eldo

In my case 80% of all my sexual encounters have been with someone I was in a releaionship with, so nonverbal agreement in those instances.
However in one example from my own life I was very drunk at a party and had collapsed on top of my mates bed in his room which was empty, and a women came in and just started groping me and stripping me down. Now I was really, really drunk, and she was giong to be out of luck on that front, but she gave it a good go anyway.
Reversed that is rape, or at least attempted rape. But I never thought of it as rape, I would never have thought of reporting her to the police for it. I thnk there is a fundemental difference somehow that I cant quite explain when some of these situations are reversed.

[Norc]

the thread was norced

but seriously though, i think both parts have good points. sexism against women is aweful, i am not saying anything else, i was just pointing out the fact that it would be quite different if you turned it. There are some women who take advantage of this "sexism and discrimination" and it is just as bad, it puts feminists and women and real issues in a bad light.

[Pettytyrant101]

we have places where we lock up people who act on their more repulsive instincts- Eldo

Thats merely a reaction to the problem. It does not help solve or address the deeper issues driving it so will never change it.

[Mrs Figg]

'A man must gain a womans consent before he has the right to attempt to breed. Who has the power there' Petty

I cannot believe you actually said that. its got nothing to do with power.

[Pettytyrant101]

From a male point of view a lot of things have to do with power. All that Kings, and PM's and President stuff, all those conquerers, all the Bellasconi's"- its all about whose got the power. Nieve to think otherwise.

[Mrs Figg]

'I have been fortunate enough to have sex initiated by the female at poiints throughout my life Eldo- not a one of them ever even thought of asking my consent- they just assumed Iwas up for it, as it were, and they were right too. But asking for consent, no, never heard of a woman asking a man for consent.They just take it as read you want to have sex with them' Petty

women cant rape men

[Pettytyrant101]

I beleive in UK law they can, sort of.

The offence of Rape (Sec 1(1) SOA 2003) can only be committed by a man; however, a woman can be charged with, or convicted of rape as a secondary party.

Although if a woman were to take advatage of a drunk or uunconcous man to say anally penetrate him with an object or sex toy then I dont see what is so different and why its not called rape myself.
It would seem no less a violation of a person to me.

[halfwise]

so your saying the natural state of a man is that of a rapist - CC

No I am not saying its a natural state- I am saying in humanities past men probably competed for women like most other large mammals do. They fought each other, proved their worth and took the females to breed with as the prize.

The woman of that time would no more have seen it as rape than a herd of mammals does now when it still happens in lower animals. It was a natural state.

Since then human brains have greatly developed and so has our abilty to reason, to think about ourselves.
New types of social releationship came into being.
But the animal urges still remain the same driving it no matter what reason makes of it.
Men still compete among themselves- showing off, getting in fights, doing stupid things to impress girls.
Women still display, putting lipstick on is thought to be done because it reminds the male of a vagina pumped with blood from sexual arousal.
Both sides still carry around and act out things based on our long legacy on the planet. It would I think be foolish when trying to deal with the problems that causes to pretend we dont have that animal side to us.


"that non-verbal consent is the norm regardless of which gender the initiating partner is, especially if both partners know each other."- Eldo

In my case 80% of all my sexual encounters have been with someone I was in a releaionship with, so nonverbal agreement in those instances.
However in one example from my own life I was very drunk at a party and had collapsed on top of my mates bed in his room which was empty, and a women came in and just started groping me and stripping me down. Now I was really, really drunk, and she was giong to be out of luck on that front, but she gave it a good go anyway.
Reversed that is rape, or at least attempted rape. But I never thought of it as rape, I would never have thought of reporting her to the police for it. I thnk there is a fundemental difference somehow that I cant quite explain when some of these situations are reversed.

I award a 'Bingo!' to Petty. Especially the last paragraph. It's not a symmetrical situation either physically or psychologically. Women have every right to call "rape!" when a man wouldn't if the same was done to him, you can't apply simple reasoning to it.

Sexual harassment, however, can go both ways and be applied equally in the workplace. A different power structure. But the simple fact of the matter is that women are far less likely to sexually harass a man. When it happens it's just as bad, but since men and women have different mental pathways to sex it's far more likely that women will be the object of such treatment.

[halfwise]

Okay, this will raise some hackles, but I should add that many women have rape fantasies: in fact I'm in involved with one right now. But they want it done in a way that it is emotionally acceptable; a complex mind split that keeps the fear and feeling of being taken without feeling violated. It's a strange dark twist in our biology which we have to accept is there, it gets out of control, with the dividing line being acceptance and consent on the woman's part. Men really aren't quite as bothered if the same thing is done to us without consent: to us it's an extension of being beat up on playground. We've dealt with it. The female experience is simply different.

All the above is just a restatement of what Petty said. There's something strange inside us we have to accept and deal with. Logical ethics are not sufficient. Rape does not apply the same to both sexes.