Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Lorient Avandi]

Like what? I am gonna change it soon.

[Lorient Avandi]

Nothing wrong with remembering the worst day in recent American history. Especially on the 10 year anniversary.

[Orwell]

No worries. Just a surprising choice. Well, it surprised me.

[Pettytyrant101]

"Nothing wrong with remembering the worst day in recent American history."- Lorient

And there was me thinking that was when you illegally invaded Iraq on spurious charges leading to the murder of some 130,000 civilians (and thats the official western estimates- other sources put it at over 1 million). Odd how there was a name reading out ceremony for those lost in a single terorist attack and no remebrance for all those murdered as a result of the spurious war which followed it. Mind you if they did the same ceremony in Iraq reading out the dead they'd still be there in a years time.
Yesterday was so nausatingly typical of America. A televised extravaganza of grief and self justification.
I read yesterday that the Iraq government is saying there is an estimtaed 5 million orphaned children as a result of the war. 5 million. Is the US going to pay to educate, house and feed these children? I very much doubt it -to busy nursing old wounds into fresh grievances. And when those 5 million grow up are they likely to thank the US for the murder of their families? Or start a whole new cycle of anti-US hatred?

-this is not aimed in particular at you Lorient for having that particular Avatar- I noted Eldo did much the same and I also found that a little disturbing but he hasn't come onto the Serious Threads with it where I can get at him.

[Orwell]

I must say I was uncomfortable with Lorient's choice, but I'm not sure I agree with you Petty about America's day of mourning and how they arranged it. I found what I saw touching and remarkably free of jingoism (by American standards). Both Obama and Bush showed great dignity and did not go (too much) over the top. Indeed, Bush was pretty restrained for him.

Hey! American grief is genuine. "Yesterday was so nausatingly typical of America. A televised extravaganza of grief and self justification." I did not see it that way, not in the least.

As to the Irak business. I suspect America is piling in a lot of money to support the nascent Democracy growing there. I would hope much of that money would go in support of the many innocent victim's of war. Yep, a tragedy. But I'm still glad Saddam's gone. Could it have been done with less destruction? Maybe, maybe not. Do I agree absolutely with what America (and Australia and Britain) did? No, not absolutely, but for all that, I'm still glad Saddam's gone.

What was done by a group of millitant religious nuts was reprehensible. What America did to to Saddam's Regime was, at least to some degree, defensible. What other countries in the region are now doing, the fight for democracy, is commendable and exciting. I link all three, though circuituously, of course.

As I said, I wish Lorient had chosen an avatar showing American grace, steadfastness and restraint while 'Remembering.' This is what I have seen exhibited by Americans many times, though, unfortunately, not always. Sadly, Lorient chose something that made me remember my seething anger, when I wanted to focus on whatever positives have since happened.

"Nothing wrong with remembering the worst day in recent American history." A lot of Americans feel that way. I don't blame them.

[Pettytyrant101]

It just seemed to lack a sense of counter responsibility. Where was the tribute to the Iraq dead? I think it was George Orwell who pointed out that when the enemy does something terrible it is self-evident, but when your own side does it (or worse) its justified. Its the double standard that appalls me and the fear that the US will slip back into its post 9/11 ignorance of the world and what their government is doing to other countries. To me terrible as 9/11 was the loss of 3000 odd civillians pales into insignficance next to the destruction which was unleashed upon innocent people as a result.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It was a war of opportunism fought on all the wrong grounds- even calling the opening move 'Shock and Awe' betrayed US arrogrance.
9/11 did not come out of the blue- it was a response to over 50 years of US foreign policy supporting dictators over democracies- even as recently as last year the UK and US were sending to Gaddaffi for torture some of the very people now leading the democratic revolution in Libya. The biggest problem fro the West with the Arab Spring is that it is exposing all the lies and deceptions and the stark truth we have been on the wrong side, supporting the bad guys for selfish interests all this time.
The civillian deaths in Iraq, the insurgency that followed the collapse of Saddam's regime and the civil war which followed were all predicted beforehand yet not prepared for. Yes Saddam was a bad man, but we didn't mind that when he was our bad man. (One UK cabinet minister famously said of Saddam "Yes he's a bastard. But he is our bastard.") Even when he used chemical weapons against the Kurds we still kept him as a friend, still bought his oil, still sold him arms to continue suppressing his own people. The West, and the US in particular doesn't have any moral ground here.
Indeed if the Arab Spring has shown anything it is that had the West choosen instead to invest its efforts in promoting genuine democracy and those groups in Arab countries who were striving to achieve it the fall of Saddam could have been orchestrated without a single foreign troop setting a boot in another soverign country.

[Orwell]

I've been mulling over the War in Irak for a few minutes. An interesting thought occurred to me.

The UN wanted to inspect heaps of sites for WMDs. If Sadddam had allowed it, maybe none would have been found. Then every nation around him (who hated him byw) may have seen Irak as weaker than they thought. Maybe Saddam could not take the risk of his weakness being exposed. He refused. America, Australia and Brittain invaded. Bye bye Saddam.

Was he was caught between a rock and a hard place? Is that why he chose to defy the UN? Or was he just a madman who thought he could fight the World?

A bit like Gadddafi, really. The word tyrant comes to mind! Bye bye.

[Pettytyrant101]

That is what happened Orwell. The BBC around the time of the invasion of Iraq had an excellent interview with Hans Blix the UN weapons Inspector in Iraq. He was certain there were no WMD and that the reason Sadamm could not just admit this was essentialy bravado. He had to appear to have the means or he was not going to last. The countries around him were all strong muslim states, Iraq was the only secular one (and hence our friend in the region). Thing is our governments knew this was the state of affairs, always had.

[Orwell]

It just seemed to lack a sense of counter responsibility. Where was the tribute to the Iraq dead? I think it was George Orwell who pointed out that when the enemy does something terrible it is self-evident, but when your own side does it (or worse) its justified. Its the double standard that appalls me and the fear that the US will slip back into its post 9/11 ignorance of the world and what their government is doing to other countries. To me terrible as 9/11 was the loss of 3000 odd civillians pales into insignficance next to the destruction which was unleashed upon innocent people as a result.

Rightly or wrongly, the Americans did forewarn Saddam. He should have let inspectors in.

The civillian deaths in Iraq, the insurgency that followed the collapse of Saddam's regime and the civil war which followed were all predicted beforehand yet not prepared for. Yes Saddam was a bad man, but we didn't mind that when he was our bad man. (One UK cabinet minister famously said of Saddam "Yes he's a bastard. But he is our bastard.") Even when he used chemical weapons against the Kurds we still kept him as a friend, still bought his oil, still sold him arms to continue suppressing his own people. The West, and the US in particular doesn't have any moral ground here..

I don't disagree. There are no good guys here.

9/11 did not come out of the blue- it was a response to over 50 years of US foreign policy supporting dictators over democracies- even as recently as last year the UK and US were sending to Gaddaffi for torture some of the very people now leading the democratic revolution in Libya. The biggest problem fro the West with the Arab Spring is that it is exposing all the lies and deceptions and the stark truth we have been on the wrong side, supporting the bad guys for selfish interests all this time.

It was a pack of nutters who did it. I hates them, I hates them forever. But I think you're right about how the West has operated far too often.

Indeed if the Arab Spring has shown anything it is that had the West choosen instead to invest its efforts in promoting genuine democracy and those groups in Arab countries who were striving to achieve it the fall of Saddam could have been orchestrated without a single foreign troop setting a boot in another soverign country.

I wonder how much clandestine money is pouring into those countries to support the crowds agitating for change? Sneaky, but a better method, if like me you think Democracy is a good thing.

[Orwell]

That is what happened Orwell. The BBC around the time of the invasion of Iraq had an excellent interview with Hans Blix the UN weapons Inspector in Iraq. He was certain there were no WMD and that the reason Sadamm could not just admit this was essentialy bravado. He had to appear to have the means or he was not going to last. The countries around him were all strong muslim states, Iraq was the only secular one (and hence our friend in the region). Thing is our governments knew this was the state of affairs, always had.

Long posts mean many crossing-overs!

I still think that means Saddam brought it on himself. And sadly, on his people.

[Pettytyrant101]

It only holds true it was Saddam's fault if you believe the UK and US governments were genuine in their belief that Saddam had WMD. But we now know this was never the case. Examples abound- from the information provided since by the former head of the UK Intelligence Services and the various investigations that have been held since into the lead up to the war. Or the now rediculous and career ending presentation given to the UN by Powell with its doctored photos showing mobile chemical weapons units which we now know never existed. And of course Hans Blix, who was the lead weapons inspector maintained publicly throughout hi sbelief there were no such weapons, as did the soon to be dead weapons inspector David Kelly who had outed the governments deception and twisiting of the facts to support a case for war.
If you look at it from a view that both the US and the UK knew Sadamm did not possess such weapons then the blame for the consequneces lies not with Saddam (he is resonsible for how he treated his people however) but with those who initiated the war.

[Pettytyrant101]

If you make a comparison between Americans reaction to a terrorist attack and other countries the difference is stark.
The UK suffered aprox 2000 deaths and hundreds if not thousands more injured at the hands of the IRA. Who were funded from Libya and the US. It did not lead to bombing Northern Ireland into rubble or declaring America part of an axis of evil. In the end it was diplomacy that prevailed.
ETA are responsible for the deaths of approx 1000 in Spain and thousands injured. Again Spain has not simply bombed the area indiscriminately, but years of behind the scenes negotiations have led to ETA declaring a permanet ceasefire this year.

[Eldorion]

this is not aimed in particular at you Lorient for having that particular Avatar- I noted Eldo did much the same and I also found that a little disturbing but he hasn't come onto the Serious Threads with it where I can get at him.

I was a bit taken aback by Lorient using a picture of the attacks themselves as his avatar, but I think I can understand where he's coming from. I used a picture of the Tribute in Light that is set up at the WTC site annually and I think that it is a tasteful symbol of remembrance to the people who's lives were lost. I've always been against the politicization of tragedies and I've never been in favor of the retaliatory wars overseas (though I can understand why so many people wanted to invade Afghanistan; Iraq was a horrible mistaken from the get go). But, in any event, the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent wars were all events seared into my memory (my earliest distinct memories are of 9/11, actually), and growing up outside D.C. and visiting frequently there are many reminders of it.

I didn't change my avatar because I wanted to cause a big stink (also the reason I didn't start posting about 9/11 in this forum) or because I wanted to call for anyone's blood, but because I wanted to have a quiet sign of remembrance of my own amidst the memorials and ceremonies of the day. woulI'd like to think that you aren't so caught up in your dislike of the U.S. government (something I can sympathize with; the government isn't terribly popular over here either) that you can't distinguish between official foreign policy and how individual Americans act and believe, but I can't think of many other reasons for you to jump on Lorient and I when we didn't make any comments about the wars or our political beliefs.

[Pettytyrant101]

Out of worry Eldo. There is a side to the US character which may be exagerated through the lens of media and distance, but its the side that blindly chants USA USA. Its the side of America that was quietly complicite through the ballot box before 9/11 (and after) in the things being done in their name. There is a tendency it seems to follow the government, that not to do so is in some way to be a bad American.
So when two US members of the forum change their avatars (and in fairness two quite different social outlooks in you and Lorient, Eldo) to mark the occasion there is a strong part of me worries whether it is simple comemmoration or something more worrying.
In the UK we have Remembrance Day every year, Poppy Day as its more commonly known as you buy a poppy to wear and the money goes to helping ex-servicemen frm all conflicts the UK has been involved in. And I buy a poppy and I keep the minutes silence every year- but it would never have occured to me to change my avatar to a poppy for it. Maybe a social difference. But there is looking in a tendancy from Americans to, well, flag wave, get all jingoistic and stop questioning what their governemnt does.
American seemed bewildred when 9/11 happeed that anyone could want to attack them and for a while after finally seemed to be questioning and looking at their countries role abroad- I'd hate to see that slide back into insular thinking and chants of USA again.

[Eldorion]

I actually don't think of changing my avatar as that different from wearing a poppy, or a pin, or a hat, or whatever. Since we don't see each other directly over forums, avatars and signatures take on that medium of personal expression. If I see a movie, show, sports team, or anything else that I really like I might buy a shirt for it, or I might change my avatar here. Changing it yesterday was just a more serious form of that for me. As it happens, I didn't wear a flag pin or anything else in real life yesterday, partially because I was working, and partially because I though that doing something here (where, as you put it, I've made clear my "social outlook" and I like to think it's not a jingoistic one), there would be less chance of a quiet symbol of remembrabce being misinterpreted as the co-optive "America, f*** yeah!" chest-thumping that happens every year. Apparently I was mistaken.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{Not mistaken Eldo- in truth I only originally mentioned you as a premptive strike- as I rather fancied Lorient's response othewise might have been to feel he was being singled out as you too had changed your avatar. I feel I know you well enough to know you would not just be chest-beating- but I was still concerned as your country is prone to chest-beating you must admit).}}}

[Eldorion]

That makes me feel a bit better, Petty. I find the amount of jingoistic (borderline xenophobic) chest-beating that goes on in the U.S. to be disturbing to. It particularly bothers me when it's tied to 9/11 and other tragedies. For that matter, 9/11 has been exploited for political gain many times, and that is extremely discouraging to me.

[Pettytyrant101]

Quite agree Eldo. Remembrance should never be the tool of any political ideaolgue or party. Those of all political persuasuaions should leave well enough alone except to lead in the Remembrance by example. Everytime a politician uses those deaths to further some aim or other they demean the memories of all those who lost their lives.

[Pettytyrant101]

In the sad continued absence of GB here's the other side to the 9/11 argument. A vid made not by conspiratory nuts but by the Architects and Enginneers calling for a proper examination of the days events.

[Eldorion]

You'll find conspiracy theorists in all professions, and AE911Truth (a group GB has mentioned here in the past) has only a tiny sliver of support. It's no different than Creationists obsessively listing the name of every single biologist or chemist (or lab janitor) they can get to sign a statement saying that evolution hasn't been proven.

There have been plenty of debunkings but Salon.com has a pretty good article that goes over some key arguments briefly and also has some interesting concluding comments about the idea of conspiracy in general. I enjoyed reading it.

[Pettytyrant101]

Well my view on the 'conspiracy' I have stated before so won't repeat but I felt somone should give GB's counter argument till he gets back to us. And this lot seemd at least to be attemting to definte their objections in some scientific terms. In particular they may have some point abut the molten steel- which is not explanable by the official version as far as I can see, nor addressed in the article you link to Eldo.

[Eldorion]

I watched that video before when GB posted it so I don't remember their exact argument, but the general conspiracist arguments about molten steel tend to revolve around (1) pretending that steel loses none of its strength before it melts and (2) assuming any molten metal at the site had to have been steel. If you can recall at which point in the video they begin to discuss molten steel I'll give that section a look.

[Pettytyrant101]

14:04- 18.25

[Pettytyrant101]

UK unemployment figures were released today.

In the three months to July is rose by 80,000. But this isn't the whole truth, becasue it only rose in England. Scottish unemployment fell. Putting us below the Uk average.
So what's the difference? Simple the SNP used the Scottish budget to fund growth, it created a mass of apprenticeships and got private companies to promise jobs at the end of them. They put money into public works, motorway bypasses and the like. They have made cuts too of course, large ones and policies like integrating the police forces into one single force is designed primarlity to save costs. Charging English students for university is also another means of offsettting cuts.
In England they have had the cuts, but not the stimulus and so no growth in the economy and no jobs. But I see the Chancellor is still insisting there is no plan B- a worry for England if so.

[Orwell]

In the three months to July is rose by 80,000. But this isn't the whole truth, becasue it only rose in England. Scottish unemployment fell. Putting us below the Uk average.

In Bendigo (Souh-by-Central-South-by-Further-East-North-of-Melbourne Ozhobbitstan) four big new schools have been built. Work for businesses, employment for workers. In ten years, no doubt, our Tories will be claiming responsibilty for how decen our Education facilities are! All I know is, we've now replaced our rundown schools with places fit for children. Government's spending money on long term worthwhile projects is rarely money poor spent. Schools are just one of them. (Sadly, being a Labor Government, we'll find out later there will have been piles of money poorly spent on useless projects, but you take the good with the bad, and new schools can only be seen as good. And, at worst, bad ideas still meant businesses being able to employ and pay workers, which I feel is a little better for the soul than paying Welfare).