Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Ally]

It better not be cancelled. It's not like anyone's going to die or anything! Unless it's relocated in my town of course, then I'd be fine with it.

[Saradoc]

I'd be one mighty hill to climb if was to still he held in Bahrain.

[Gandalf's Beard]

Speaking of Bahrain...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12495733

Bloody military .

GB

[Ally]

Homonym alert!! Here to help!

[Pettytyrant101]

Love a linguistic joke!

[Gandalf's Beard]

Liked that one eh!?


GB

[odo banks]

Pro-democracy demonstrations all over the Middle East! People want it! Hooray!

Down with ALL tyrants (except Mr Tyrant) - all religious, fascist, leftist, communist, etc, regimes! Anyone would think the fight for democracy in places like Iraq was a Western Conspiracy. Bulldust! (Yes, yes, maybe things could have done a bit more honorably in Iraq - but this PROVES that Democracy is not just wanted by out-spoken Western Democratic Folk. Feet-on-the-street demonstrations actually REPORTED proves the Desire is there for Democracy! Whoda thought it!)

(((But be careful Middle Eastern Men - Democracy usually means Women start wanting Freedom too - yes, be very careful! Don't make the same mistakes We made!)))

[Pettytyrant]

Our UK PM Cameron is over in the Middle east now, selling weapons- but its ok we have strict rules apparently (like only selling them firing mechanisms and lengths of pipe, if they make guns out of it its not our fault) and -shock admittance from Cameron- in the past Britain 'might not have done all it could do to promote democracy' there- which is quite good diplomatic talk given in the past we actively supported the dictators and nutters and still would be if the people themselves hadn't got so fed up of it they finally revolted. 'Britain we do hypocrisy for free!'

Unpleasantness in New Zealand. Is Christchurch near TH filming-perhaps not the most important thing of the moment but would like to know. This might be the first film yet to be abandoned because of acts of God! That end of the world seems to be getting a battering at the moment. Thoughts go to all those caught up in such terrible events.

[Ally]

This seems even more shocking to me than previous devastating earthquakes. Seeing this video footage of earthquakes occurring in our Western Styled cities, really brings it home. We are all used to earthquakes happening in Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, Chile, Vanuatu, etc, but now it's happening in a western MEDC city, it makes me feel even more for those foreign cities in foreign countries + NZ.

Echoing PettyT, my prayers and support go out to our brother's and sisters in New Zealand.

[Pettytyrant]

I too Ally found the tv footage deeply disturbing. I think I agree that it seems worse when it looks like somewhere you might be yourself. Not sure if its because it looks western so much as it looks like most places. I watched the Twin Towers come down live and that was unpleasant but this felt worse, I think because New York is so extraordinary looking and the only place most of us have ever seen it is on tv or in the cinema- where its often blowing up and falling down.
The Christchurch earthquake seems to hit closer to home. Its amazing how easily nature can utterly destroy our sense of control and power over our lives. In the face of such events we are as helpless to prevent them as any other lowly animal on this planet.

[Eldorion]

Add me to the chorus about being disturbed by the footage. I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be there. I hope that the aftershocks have ended and there are no more deaths.

[Eldorion]

I know GB will have a field day with this, but it's just too disturbing (yet also hilarious) to not share. Welcome to the inside world of American politics, everyone.

(For those not familiar, Scott Walker is the Republican governor of Wisconsin who has a plan to strip a state employee's union of the right to collectively bargain on certain issues, which will supposedly "fix the budget". David Koch is one of the Koch brothers, a pair of reclusive hyperconservative billionaires who are fairly active in financing Republican programs.)

http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=5045

[Pettytyrant101]

You see what has happened in Egypt, the struggle ongoing in Libya and other places and democracy seems like a shining beacon. A glittering jewel of empowerment and decency between fellow human beings.
And then you listen to something like that and begin to wonder if its all a mirage. If up close, when you scrutinize the longest established democracies, it just turns out to be a pile of sh*t that from afar the sun just happened to be shining off in a pleasing way.

[Pettytyrant101]

Much as it is tragic no doubt for those involved I just saw the following headline scroll across the ticker tape on CNN and had to mention it;

Voodoo sex ceremony causes fatal fire.

What a remarkable planet we live on!

[Ally]

Gosh, sounds like an episode of CSI:NY! And it happened in New York as well!

[Pettytyrant101]

Anyone any good at organizing campaigns. I was trying to think of one single issue, a reform that could be made, that would have huge deep consequences for democracy, freedom and make it much harder for states to be dictatorial towards their own people. And I think I have it. One simple change- huge effect.

Abolish the UN Security Council and its veto.
One country, one vote no veto all countries equal.

Simple! Now how do we start a world wide petition?

[Kafria]

On the middle East protests I think it is worth noticing the role that wider, non state media has played. While away the news stations, telly and radio, were covering the Libya stuff quite fully (including the unsettling imagery), and only once did someone suggest the media were manipulating what was reported, most horrified by the events!

(And yes half term does account for our sudden disappearance as suggested elsewhere!)

[Pettytyrant101]

I think civilization has go to the point where the general populace is media savy and is now using media for its own ends. A good thing overall, rather than relying solely on traditional news outlets you can go on you tube and see footage posted by protesters on the ground without the filter of a news bulletin.
Where it gets harder to judge is when you want to get a sense of the narrative of it- whose likely to be in a position to take over, what is the army position or whatever- for that news stations are still the main way and given the West's complicity for so long in these regimes its worth I think not taking the 'narrative' part of what's going on at face value.

I also heard Peter Mandelson say that Tony Blair has been on the phone to Gadaffi in the last two days- no doubt offering him a way out that does not involve international court and a war trial.
When it comes to keeping these regimes in power and supplying thugs like Gadaffi with the means to repress their own people the West is horribly guilty. I wonder if this tide of change will actually alter anything in that regard. The defence seems to be 'we don't have to like them to do business with them'- and there's an argument to be made there. But we went further than doing business with them, we sold them weapons and the like. Only last year the UK sold Egypt a huge amount of stuff for crowd and riot control. We were giving a dictator the means to suppress his people and remain in power. That's not just doing business and for me is something to be ashamed of as a Brit no less so than our countries part in the slave or opium trade. It seems we haven't really changed since those days so will we now?

[Ringdrotten]

Feel free to finish the ongoing discussion before answering this, but have any of you heard of a nazi/anti-islam group called English Defence League? The reason I'm asking is because I read about a Norwegian branch of this "league" (Norwegian Defence League) which is growing in numbers these days. In addition, there's this Russian neo-nazi that came to Norway last fall seeking asylum (which he didn't get, but he hasn't been sent out yet either) who's sort of rallying people to his "cause" which is killing as many Jews, Muslims and what have you as possible. The combination of the two is worrying, to say the least. Is this Defence League thing big in England/Britain?

[Kafria]

I don't pretend to be that knowledgable about the EDL, they have been making some noise in the last couple of years and been invovled in some high profile, violent clashes. They seem similar to their more established forerunners the BNP, who have in recent years enjoyed some political success in some areas, playing on local predjudices and fears in areas of economic deprivation. This success, however seems to have gone against them, as many locals were so incensed, that it ensured big turn out at following elections to ensure it didn't happen again!

A recent article is here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12375175

I am sure others may have a better grasp and add more.

[Pettytyrant101]

On a separate matter, which I mention only because it shocked me, and I grew up with this stuff. In Scotland there are only two important football teams, the Old Firm, Rangers and Celtic, and they are both based in Glasgow. It'd take too long to explain exactly what makes them bitter rivals but the hatred between them goes back to the late 1880's as teams and religiously back to the reformation.
But now the Chief of Glasgow Police is calling for the game to be banned, which isn't what shocked me, what shocked me was the details they released as to why. This from the newspaper,

"They are just not worth the murder and mayhem that accompanies them.'

'If the players are on the park...being aggressive I cringe. I know this violence will be replecated later on Scotland's streets- but then it will be done with bottles and knives.'

'every police cell in Glasgow was filled after Sunday's Old Firm game.'

'domestic abuse incidents on the day increased by 80 percent.'

'across Scotland ambulance crews responded to more than an 18% increase in calls than on a normal Sunday.'

And this is the consequence of a football match remember, not a war.

[Kafria]

'domestic abuse incidents on the day increased by 80 percent.'

Not so sure about the other stuff, but this is linked to football in general and has long been documented! A lot of the violence that is related to football is swept under the carpet these days as if it doesn't exsist, but still goes on.

[Pettytyrant101]

They got a lot of the violence out of the public eye when they got rid of it from the terraces, but in the streets and pubs and more so at home its still rife. And in Scotland, with the religious hatred wound about it, its even worse than in most football matches.

[Pettytyrant]

Deep nightshift thoughts (another good reason I shouldn't do nightshifts).
What if linear time is a sort of cosmic optical illusion? That there is only one thing- a big ball of stuff if you like that is perceived (by anything from electrons to individuals). And a constant alteration in perceving that whole gives the effect of passing time, when in fact there is no time just a constant reinterpretation of a single event?
A bit like looking at the sun, is the sun going round the earth or do we go round it? From just looking at it its impossible to tell which. By the same token time seems to pass when in fact it could be just a constant affect of cumulative perception on the single whole event.

See the sort of thoughts I have to contend with at 4am! Its not fair.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yet another Old Firm match. Yet more mayhem on the park let alone what will come off it. Games just finished. Numerous flare ups, about 7 yellow cards, 1 red. Celtic won 1-0 in a game mainly characterized by nastiness. I can hear a neighbour as I type, two doors down shouting, (and I apologize for this and put it not to cause offence but to give the honest truth) "You f***ing fenian b*****d. I hope you f*****g die. I hope you get a f*****g bullet in your head." And twice in the past ten minutes I have heard the distant singing of groups in the street, of both sides singing songs of a similar religious tone.
And I live in a relatively quiet small town. Imagine the streets of Glasgow tonight. It really is the curse of the West of Scotland, and to my shame as a youth I did my fair share of singing and shouting, but its that hard to avoid. What's really sad is those who make it all the way to adulthood and never stop and then pass it on to their children.
I wonder if it will ever end despite years of campaigns and the like its as bad now as it was when I was a kid. Amazing really seeing as even the Irish have decided it was a bad idea and its best to settle differences. The West coast of Scotland seems determined to keep it going.

edit- just found out 2 more players red carded in the tunnel. The madness rolls on.

The BBC report on the match (contains scenes of an unpleasant nature!!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/9412386.stm