Religous debates and questions

I WOULD HAVE GIVEN YOU ALL OF MY POKEMON CARDS
BUT SOMEONE HAS TORN THEM APARRT
AND SHE'S TAKEN ALL OF THEM I HAD
BUT BABY, I'LL TRY TO START AGAIN

The first cut in the card is the deapest

Religious debates and questions must wait until I find my yooper in my dreams

you win

nighty night

Christmas and Christ

Inspired by the Thanksgiving thread I thought Id take a short look at christmas- and where it may have come for.

The first thing to notice is that the early church had no xmas. Its first appearence as a festival is not until the 2nd century AD. Although its roots as a midwinter festival are much, much older.
It only becomes associated with Christianity when that religion was adopted as the official religion of Rome- and there it merely encompasses the older Sun worship based religous festival in December, Saturnalia.
Saturnalia was notable as being a harvest festival which honoured Saturn, God of Sowing.
The festives ran from December 17 to the 24th- with the 25th being 'natalis solis invicti'- the birth of the unconquered sun.
As Christianity grew in import to Rome it took over this festival and the meaning changed to be a celebration of the 'son of light'- Jesus.

A lot of what we consider to be a part of xmas can be found in Saturnalia- for example people decorated their hiomes with greenery and light and they gave presents to children and the poor. They hung respresentive 'masks' onto evergreen trees and decorated them with shiny and bright colours.

Saturn is a god with a long history under different guises- his role was two fold- he was on the one hand literally the Sun so responsible for warming the earth, providing light and therefore growth to all plants.
But he had another darker side- he was also the God that burnt- and this apsect of him is more clear in his older incarnations as Nimrod to the Baylonians, and Molech/Baal to the Old Testament- to whom children were sacrificed in fires.

The irony here is that modern Christians in celebrating this festival are actually taking part in a ceremony for a God the Bible forbids. Indeed it even forbids this very festivity that we call xmas.
Saturn/Nimrod/Moloch gets a lot of attention in the OT- Nimrod is seen as rival to God immediately following the Flood-

'He [Nimrod] also said he would be revenged on God, if He should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach…Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God”- Josephus, Antiquities

That the 'xmas' period celebration was one in which sacrifices of infants were made in fires appears in the OT-

“And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into My mind, that they should do this abomination…”- Jeremiah (32:35)

Cannablism was also a part of these sacrificial ceremonies- as a priest in the old days had to partake of the sacrifice- whether it was animal, vegatable or human for that matter.
The moden word cannibal comes from the old Hebrew word for priest- Cahn in association with the festival to Molech/Baal- 'cannibal' therefore was literally 'Priest of Baal' who ate of the human sacrifice.

The OT in particualr is quite strong on stressing that the midwinter festival associated with this God is to be abhorred.
Even the xmas tree gets a prohibition in the Bible-

“Thus says the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen…For the customs of the people are vain: for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold"- Jeremiah

Other common xmas tropes- holly wreaths for example are also pagan in origin. During Saturnalia they were exchanged as tokens of friendship - this became blended with the European practice of bringing holly into the home as an offering to the faery folk.

The book of Deutronomy also speaks harshly of this midwinter ceremony and its associations-

“You shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which you shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And you shall overthrow their altars…and burn their groves with fire"

The phrase about green trees and groves makes more than 10 appearences in the OT.


As most scholars agree that Jesus was not in fact born in December at all but most likely in March its fairly clear than not only is xmas not a christain festival but its the opposite. Its a festival whose roots are in the very gods the Bible warns Christians about.
Every Christian who particaptes in xmas is in reality taking part in an anicent ceremony to the God of the Sun and Fire. A Ceremony and God the Biblical God of the OT and Christianity strictly forbids.

that was interesting, Ive not read The Bible,or shown any interest in it. Im more a "spiritual" kinda person, I prefer things associated with the seasons, I go by natural things, Ive been called "a tree hugger" & im happy with that. I love Nature & animals, the natural wonders of the Earth, Weather, sky at night, anything rather than Religious mumbo jumbo, Sorry!, Im not out to offend ! its just my personal choice. I celebrate Christmas out of love for my family & friends, us being together,as one. Not as a Christian belief. Theres a lot of hypocracy Ive seen during debates On TV & what my catholic friend has said,that doesnt sway me towards ANY religion. I keep an open mind about things tho, but Im not about to bang the drum for Jesus or anyone else.

Glad you found it interesting Azriel- I dont follow any religion either but they do fascinate me- particualrly their role in history and societies.

In studying this sort of stuff for a long time I have come to the conclusion that if there are dieties out there somewhere the last place you are likely to find them is in an organised religion, who have far to many other motivations in the way. Gods barely figure in them.

I didn't realize the 'christmas tree' tradition was old enough to be mentioned in Jeremiah! Where'd they get those blinky lights from back then?

From the aliens Halfwise, where else?


There is an interesting (well I think so anyway) side aspect to the whole Judiasm/Christianity v nature religion.

It seems to have been going on since the begining of the agricultural revolution. And its a story, in a veiled form that makes it into the OT in the form of the tale of Cain and Abel.
If you remember they were the sons of Adam and Eve. But the two brothers were on opposite sides when it came to how best to please God with offerings.
One of them, Cain, is a farmer- the other a shepherd. But shepherd is a later term as animal husbandry to the point of domestication was at best only just begining- so shepherd is probaly a bit to well defined a term for what he represented.
It was a conflict between the ancient traditional religous practises, which were centred around animals and death/life cycles and the new religous practises which centred on the harvests and astronomy for controlled planning of the planting seasons.
The stroy of Cain and Abel implies this struggle got bloody, brother fought brother over it.
According to the Bible in the end the old religous practices won out- God preferred the animal sacrifice.
This decision of the religous heirarchy of the day may not have gone down well with the populace, or perhaps just the farmers. As Cain then killed Abel.
This might just be a moral addition to the story or it may well represent the actual death of somone important at the time on the side of the animal based religion.

However it was the old religion clung on in power, but it was playing a losing long game as its power had stemmed from the way people lived- now people increasingly lived in towns and cities.
By the time the OT is recording the giving of instructions to its followers to destroy all groves and sacred sights of trees the old religions are in their last days.
The new religions should be seen as modern, new ideas- making fun of simplness and stupidty of the old religions in much the same way evolutionists do of creationists. The mood of the times was with the new modern thinking- and as by this point people had been living in societies for a few thousand years the old nature practises were as removed and remote from the everyday person as Druid rites are to us now.
The last great days of the nature religions are recorded in the Bible stories concerning Molech/Baal and Nimrod.
All the more ironic then that a couple of thousand years later the religion which sprouted out of the winning religion was Christianity, with at the heart of it the old pagan idea of death and resurection, and it would retain the old nature ceremony at the very heart of its religous calendar and make it the largest celebration on the globe.

In a sense Abel lost the fight but won the war.

That view sits better with me than the "Hell & damnation" thats bashed from the pulpit, I find lots of subjects interesting, even religion. Im keen to see the way it affects people. Put it this way, If there were only 2 camps, one was religion & one was scientific based, philosophy,etc, I think Id be on the scientific side. Religion to me is "man made".I dont belive in some God/s on high that intervene whenever the whim takes them. I believe in alien life forms more than I believe in God/s.(& I dont mean "little green,bug eyed,big headed man like beings) I believe "Christ" was a genius for his time,much like our Stephen Hawkins type, but because of "Christ's" knowledge or foresight, he was revered as a son of God.
And YES,Halfy, i was very surprised at the mention of trees?! I was led to believe that it was thanks to Prince Albert why we have trees now ? Obviously Germany etc had trees before us,to celebrate Christmas.

Oddly enough there is no hell and no devil in the OT- at least not any terms applicable to the modern idea of it.

Most people associate the seprent in the garden of eden with satan but actually the seprent is Enki-a Summerian God- the serpent represented wisdom and knowledge. Which is why in the story it is Enki who gets humans to eat the apple and so gain the knowledge to be more than slaves of God, tending His fields and making Him wine.
Enki was on the humans side and wanted to free them.
Weirdly if you read Genesis with this in mind it is clear the serpent is the good guy in the story- and its God (Ea in Summerian) who is the oppressor wanting to keep humans naked (the status of a slave in the ancient world) and inservitude in the Garden.
Its only thanks to Enki humans gain wider knowledge and can set out on their own.
God isnt hugely forgiving of this and eventually sends the Flood to do away with us. But is foiled by Enki again who warns Noah ( Utnapishtim) about the coming deluge and so onc emore helps humanity survive.

Now,youde think somewhere in the OT that the Devil would have been mentioned,if not as a warning? But then,many oppressors dont want you to know the full facts do they. I kinda knew the name "Lucifer" meant "light giver,or,morning dawn" or something on the lines of Light rather than Dark,? My son did a study of Satanism, (No,he didnt rape young girls & bite the heads of chickens off!) but he was interested in Anton Levay & the ideas he held. Some of which surprised me! I was a bit ignorant about Satanism but,thanks to my son,(Adam) Ive learnt a bit...........................Now wheres that dam bird !?

Lucifer is represented by Venus- hence the name 'Light Giver and Morning Dawn'- as Venus is visible on the horizon just before dawn at the equinoxes where the sun rises.
Venus has a long association with fertility and immortality.
It can still be found in Masonic ceremonies in this role and it fulfilled the same role in the old Celtic religions.
Maes Howe on Orkney is orientated to take advatage of Venus' light, casting down a long passageway and lighting up a wall of quartz with an eathreal light in the 'birthing' chamber.
The shape Venus makes in the sky as the year passes, from an earth persepective, is the pentagram. Hence that symbols association with Lucifer and Satanism.

Maes Howe (approx 3000bc)




The Venus Pentagram

Petty: thankyou for that, it is a long & lengthy subject but it is fascinating! Im fond of watching probs on TV about this sort of thing. At the moment my religious view is being undermined. My dear cat,who's 10yrs old has just got back from the Vet,hes had 3 big lumps cut out, 2 were in the muscle. Ive got to wait for the results of tests of these lumps to find out if Mario has cancer or not. So Im feeling a bit "distant" at mo, but enjoying this forum is really helping me take my mind off things! (this is for the people here! )

Sorry to hear about the cat- hope he gets better soon.

This subject is long and lengthy but I love to get the opportunity to dip back in to it (Ive not studied the Lucifer/Venus stuff in years).
I have some (unsubstantiated!) theories about Maes Howe and its connection to Enoch, the comet and the Flood.
My own guess is that Enoch travelled to Maes Howe and was shown, from the centre of a stone circle the incoming comet. He was then given instructions in the creating of a circle in order to track heavenly bodies from the Middle-East.
A stone circle can be built at any latitutde using just two stciks to mark it out and a years worth of patience- as it relies on the suns position and shadows cast do this it auto-aligns to whereever you are in the world, and this dictates the actual shape of the circle.
Ancient inscriptions going back to at least Egypt show priests holding two such measuring sticks.
And several 'european' stlye stone circles have been found in the region.

When I go to a Medical Practice, no one tends to talk to me. When I take my cat to the Vet, nearly everyone does. Maybe the Egyptians were right. Cats are Little Gods bringing Goodness to Man (and Woman)!

2 pages of religous discourse and -cats! I should just put pics of cats up shouldnt I? {{{I still hope yours is well Azriel, its excepted from this rant}}}

My post did have a religious aspect tho, Petty, be fair... I mean, it's like you don't pussies, but I know you do!

What I'm expected to be fair now? This really is too much. Next you'll be asking me to be reasonable!
And I like pussies just fine, but in their proper place, out of sight and where you cant get a whiff of them.

I thought your house was full to the brim with pussies, some of 'em clever enough to open doors - and bottles too, I assume. Why you have turned against them, I might never know. It's like you now want to rub your pussies the wrong way. How ungrateful of you, as I'm sure your pussies have given you no less than perfect happiness from the very first time you stroked one!

The last time I stroked a pussy was about two hours ago- and it threw up on me. Also it is pouring with rain and a wet pussy is not as much fun as it might sound so they are refusing to go out- but keep opening all the doors just to check the weather. They are all therefore in the bad books and there will be no pussy getting petted by my hand in this barrell tonight!

you can always stroke my pussy, it wont bite!

but going back to more serious stuff, wet pussies not withstanding, (they get kinda curly,have you noticed?) No ones concluded, as far as I know, about why there is Stonehenge & what its actually there for. There are several other sites around the world quite like Stonehenge. People are still guessing how Stonehenge was erected, (Im guessing water power of some sort ?) Many are thinking its to do with Astrology & Druids & sacrifices etc.