FREEDOM!!!!

Here's farming in the Palouse country of eastern Washington now.

Those pictures of the 20-horse teams are wild! I never would have imagined. Those seats look so rickety and dangerous.

Eldorion wrote:Those pictures of the 20-horse teams are wild! I never would have imagined. Those seats look so rickety and dangerous.

Those are actually a 27 horse hitch and a 30 horse hitch. My grandfather only worked on 20's as far as I know.

The seat on the reaper (1st picture) is rigged so it can be raised and lowered with a winch from below. This was necessary because when they'd go down into the bottom of the valley and the horses were starting up the other side, the driver's seat would be hitting the horses if it wasn't lifted. But when the rig started up the other side the driver might be so high in the air that he was in danger of tipping over backwards.

Notice the "wings" on the side are adjustable to the slope of the sidehills by winch as well. Running those old machines required a lot of teamwork!

Ironically, during the early 20th century as automobiles became more common and better roads were needed, many of these beautiful old plow teams were leased to the road crews between spring plowing and fall harvesting, to build the first highways in the west. In those days a big gang plow with a good team could move more earth in a day than a bulldozer.

Looking back on it now, it's almost as if those horses were digging their own graves, building the roads that would make them obsolete...

And to tie this back to the topic, the Clydesdales still have the reputation of some of the best heavy draft horses ever bred. Are their bloodlines still going in your part of the country Petty?

Edit: made me think of this.

Wow! That was really impressive David ! I enjoyed that step into the past ! Totally fascinating. & having pictures to amplify the story made it so "touchable", if you get what I mean. Actually, what Petty said about the News etc, made me realise, IF we are all part of one big happy family, albeit Welsh, Irish OR Scottish, then why do I not hear more news & information coming from, & about, Scotland ? As an "Englander" I have felt segregated from my "neighbours". I dont know anything really about Wales, Scotland OR Ireland very much, I couldnt recite their history, which I think is very bad ! Schools here are not fussed to take the 3 nations into their curriculum, only snippets, & thats only if it benefits England in some way. I think its a shame Cornwall lost its language, that, I would have loved to hear. If the 3 nations have a language of their own, why not use it & anything else thats applicable to them ? I can see the point that England wants it all their own way. And I think thanks to Government, there is a feel of "us & them" attitude. Scots get stereotyped as thugs, Irish are thick & Welsh are sheep shaggers, (in a nut shell, thats hardly a fitting description !) But I think a bit more seriousness is called for !

Fascinating stuff David, I love seeing old stuff lke that still at work. There are a few old loom mills an stuff here that have been preserved as living museums and I love wathcing all that old igenuity and craftsmenship working, not to mention the genuine skill it often took to operate any of it.
As to Clydedales, as far as I know they still breed them, but obviously there isnt a huge call for a massive draft horse anymore, so Id guess numbers arent huge, although I dont actually know.
I use to be associated with a horse club long ago and went to many a horse show and there were always one or two of them dotted about- they are hard to miss. And the absolute worst horse to have stand on your foot.

"I couldnt recite their history"-- Azriel

Yet I was taught and could recite your histrory, but not my own. Odd that wouldn't you say?
The thing is we didnt get to this point with devolved parliaments in Wales, Scotland and NI and now possible independence in Scotland becuase all the people in these countries felt England was treating us fairly and hearing our voices.
We are where we are because England has ignored its other partners in Union whilst exploiting them to its own benefit.

And if you doubt that consider this- had Scotland been independent in the late 1970's Thatcher could not have closed down all the industries in the rest of he UK and regenerated London without Oil money, as the Official Records show.
She used our own resources to destroy our communities and industries and fatten London.

But her attitude, although more blatant than most, is not different from the general attitude of diregard- so it often seems to those outside England- that England has of the rest of us.

(And I speak of England here as the state)

sounds like you dont have to worry about getting English history in schools.

New Scottish school curriculum teaches students Britain is an ‘arch-imperialist villain’

History lessons north of the border are to be revamped in a bid to downplay the British Empire and promote Scottish Nationalism.
In an assault on the SNP’s new Curriculum for Excellence (CfE), senior history teachers said Government ‘tinkering’ would lead to a further slide in standards.
it is claimed youngsters preparing to study for their Highers will be told that Britain is an ‘arch-imperialist villain’ and the history of the Empire will be reduced solely to lessons about slavery.
Under the SNP shakeup, Scottish history will focus predominantly on a Braveheart portrayal of great battles
Children will be taught about the Great War purely from the perspective of the Scots who took part – while Scottish history will focus predominantly on a ‘Braveheart’ portrayal of great battles.
Last night, the Scottish Association of Teachers of History (SATH), which is due to meet in Aberdeen today to discuss the changes, warned of the ‘dangerous consequences’ of the SNP’s shake-up.
Nick Seaton, of the Campaign for Real Education, said: ‘The SNP is trying to rewrite the history books to create propaganda and that is utterly unacceptable.’
SNP leader Alex Salmond has been accused of trying to rewrite history in his new Curriculum for Excellence
Scottish Tory education spokesman Elizabeth Smith said: ‘To hear concerns about any attempt to undermine balance and objectivity in history is very worrying indeed. This is not the first time fears like these have been raised about curriculum developments under the SNP. The Scottish Conservatives deplore any moves to include political bias in the teaching of any subject.’
SATH president Neil McLennan said: ‘After a prolonged period of tinkering with vague proposals and low-level discussion on skills which have basically been taught in classrooms for decades, the Scottish Qualifications Authority has released the first glimpse of content for history exams. What is proposed will shock many.’
Concern focuses mainly on the new National 5 history course. Such courses pave the way to Highers, but SATH claimed the redesigned subject will be biased towards a parochial view of history, where key topics will be taught solely from a narrow Scottish perspective.
Mr McLennan said: ‘In 2014, students will be remembering Bannockburn, but may be poorly informed of the other major anniversary that year [the 100th anniversary of the start of the Great War.]’
Television historian Bettany Hughes said cherry-picking moments in history was 'dangerous'
He said the ‘flash of tartan and cries of “Freedom” will attract students to some of the Scottish units in National 5’.
But he added: ‘The British history units pale into dry, boring insignificance against this populist history. Indeed, many units portray Britain as the consistent arch-imperialist villain of the piece.’
Mr McLennan said the make-up of the Great War courses will focus mainly on the role of Scots.
Last night, TV historian Bettany Hughes said: ‘Politicians are always itching to get involved, for obvious reasons, but really we should let history do the talking – without interference.
‘We should be teaching the Empire in context – that’s the most important thing.’
A Scottish Government spokesman said: ‘The teaching of significant historical events will continue to have its proper place in history lessons in Scottish schools.
‘Ministers recently met Neil McLennan and agreement was reached that further collaboration with Education Scotland and the Scottish Qualifications Authority is required to support the implementation of history in CfE.’

I dont doubt you at all Petty, I agree, I was reminiscing about my child hood thanks to David & his plough! As I recall, when I was at school, the 3 nations were only glossed over. We knew Scots wore kilts etc, the Irish jigged a lot, & the Welsh worked in colleries & sung a lot ! My youngest is now 18yrs old, my eldest is 34 yrs old, Ive 2 others inbetween. They ALL said there was no real education concerning the other countries !! They are each really as ignorant in the politics etc as I am, & Im not proud of that by any means ! Wales,Ireland & Scotland do have so much to offer & have such fine qualities, yet Im sorry to say, from what Ive heard, there is a modicum of snobbery from the British. The only time Ive heard anyone say anything nice or informative is when theyve returned from an holiday ! And as for anything to do with Scottish history, I was taught William Wallace was a trouble maker & Mary queen of scots got what she deserved as she was a devious cow ! there ! what about THAT then ! & MY kids were taught much along the same lines !

In the uk there is atax called the Council Tax- it goes to local councils t pay for amenieties.

In Scotland, since the SNP got into power it has been frozen, with no rises.

This is what the Scottish Tories have had to say about the SNP doing this-

"the SNP has promised a five-year council tax freeze without demonstrating how they would pay for it. They are indulging in fantasy economics."
"Our fully costed spending plans do not rely on imaginary efficiency savings, yet the SNP’s uncosted plans do. The SNP need to explain where they are finding the money for this extension of the Council Tax freeze."

For the record the freeze has been in place for at least five years now I think and society has yet to collapse.
But more interestingly local Council elections are coming up all across England and PM is on the Campaign Trail- here's David Cameron today-

'During a visit to Warwickshire, the Conservative leader cited Tory councils' decision to freeze council tax for the past three years as evidence that the party was on the side of "hard-working people".There was a "clear moral imperative" for councils to keep council tax bills down, he said during a speech in Nuneaton. Here in Warwickshire they've frozen council tax - this year, last year, the year before that," he said. - BBC


Tories- tell you anything to get your vote, and if a good idea was your opponents, like a Council Tax freeze thats been in place in Scotland for years, then they will opose it, denounce it, scare monger it, before eventually nicking it, claiming its their own idea and promoting as the greatest thing ever and evidence that all things Tory are good. He's a slippery sort of bastard is Cameron.

I watch his body language when he's on tv, you cant hide that, nor can you hide facial language ! He's a bastard alright !

Im not proud of that by any means !- Azriel

The English people are not responsible, they are in my view victims just as much, you have been robbed of sharing in the history and heritage of these islands. I am happy I learned English history, but I am saddened that despite doing O level and Higher History- 5 years of education, I never learnt anything about my own country save when it touched English history or events like WW2- and even then I left school without knowing anything about the frankly heroic men of the Scottish isles who sailed the treacherous North Sea filled with German U boats to smuggle people, information, and everyting else you can imagine into Norway until after I had left school.
It took until a few years ago to get the Westminister government to recognise them and award them posthemous medals- they got the highest order possible.

And my gaps in Scottish history were massive- fortunetly my work with the elderly gave me eye witness acocounts of a lot of recent history, and I went out my way to learn the rest myself (and this was preinternet- I did it the old fashioned way).

"William Wallace was a trouble maker & Mary queen of scots got what she deserved as she was a devious cow !"

William Wallace was a trouble maker, thats why we built him a statue or two.
But he was eventually also a pain in the arse.

The best description of him I ever read by a historian described him in his later years before he got handed over to the English as, 'like the last guy at a party who just wouldn't leave and was determined to keep the party going.'
His own side handed him in, he had got everyone round the table and wanted to keep fighting. In the end he was in the way.

As to Mary, the Scottish point of view on her rather depends on whether you are Catholic or not.
I used to attend a reinactment carried out every year (still) by the people of a place called Creggans on Loch Fyne(look it up on google earth!) of when Mary disembarked there in 1563. She was then rowed to Inverary on the other side of the loch. A very dangerous tactic for a catholic as Inverary was, and is, the seat of the Campbells', oneof, if not the most powerful clan at the time, and protestant and on the side of the Monarchy.
She certainly had a pair did Mary.

If you have the time Azriel I would highly recommend this series- very watchable, engaging historian (Neil Oliver) and pretty and dramatic scenery. Oh and a bit of history (and it all seems to be there on you tube)

Oh yes ! thankyou Petty ! I like this guy, I have watched his programnes on TV. He's very likeable.I like his "coast to coast" episodes & progs when he buggers off abroad, like the Viking prog he did. I have a friend, his family roots are from Scotland, he often talks about the place with affection & his stories are always interesting. My family come from Ireland. My grans family came from Kilkenny, my granddad never spoke of his past, but he came from Ireland also. Ive always meant to take a trip over there, but, havnt yet.

Its a good series and he goes into a good bit of detail in seperating Scottish myth from known history.

Mrs Figg wrote:sounds like you dont have to worry about getting English history in schools.

New Scottish school curriculum teaches students Britain is an ‘arch-imperialist villain’

Johhny Britain or his brother...? what was his name...? Cyril I think...?

Its readressing a balance Mrs Figg- (and I supsect thats a Daily Mail piece- has their hysterical Unionist shrillness to it).

For example there was a Scottish Civil War- a war that had as big an influence on Scotland as Hastings did on the English. A civil war the effects of which and the divisions can still be felt and seen today.

Yet I can tell you about Normans. Saxons, 1066, King Harold, arrow in the eye, the tapestry ect- but if I hadnt self educated myself on the matter, I couldnt even have told you there had ever been a Scottish civil war, let alone when or who it was between or why or where the major engagements took place.

Is that not a disgrace?-imagine an American who gets to adulthood and has never even heard of a civil war in their country.
Thats the position most Scots are in. Our history is niether taught nor celebrated. Its been replaced, eclipsed by the history of our larger neighbour.

then if its not taught in schools why dont parents put a book in the kids hands and say read that, its got your history in it. there are ways of circumventing things that you dont find just. The curriculum is pretty useless anyway, it only teaches kids to parrot facts, I doubt if any English kids learn much either.

The sad truth is the downgrading and neglect of our history has been ongoing for so long (literally hundreds of years) even locals often no longer know their own history.
That civil war I mentioned- that I had never heard of it until after I left school? I live in the heartland of wheere it took place and I still hadnt heard of it.
Thats what happens when an outside country gets controll of yours and systemically and delibretly sets about to replace the history with their own- eventually there are few left who know enough to even pass the stories on any more.

No parent is going to think to give their children education material on a civil war if they themselves dont even know it ever happened.

And personannly I do think there is an onus on the education ystem when teaching history to at least cover the major events in the history of the country its being taught in.

We've got a similar problem. The text books are all written from the perspective of the Northeastern US. We memorize names and dates of places that most people here will never see in their lives, and then are expected to regurgitate them for tests at regular intervals. They're an important part of the test for naturalized citizenship. It's why so many kids hate history.

We've got quite a lot of history on the west coast too, but all that many people know is Lewis and Clark, California Gold Rush, Alaska Gold Rush, (and of course the false histories out of Hollywood Westerns.) Those are the points that the national myth builders think are important for cementing the US claim to the lands.

People raised without a sense of their own history tend to have lower self-esteem, less of a sense of community. The kids often can't wait to leave home when they're old enough, usually to a city that they learned about in their history books. It's a constant cultural drain, driven by the curriculum.

I completely agree David- its has unfortunate side effects on a country losing its own sense of history.
Most Scots have a view of our history that is the one created for tourism- all that Braveheart stuff- but the actual real details few even know.

I grew up in a generation whose parents used to say things to us like "Speak properly" when we used Scots- I used to get a slap round the ear for saying things like "dinnae' instead of 'dont'- not proper english. Despite Scots being the language of my part of Scotland and the language of Robbie Burns ect it was frowned upon- you wouldnt get a proper job if you spoke in Scots.

All these little things added together eat away at a country and its people.

Yep, That bugs me also. I think,that in your OWN country, you should keep alive your OWN language ! Stop catering for the masses, everyone speaks English now,so must we. Fast are we losing our individuality, the essence of what makes us "US," Each culture, tribe, whichever title you may wish to use, needs to keep a grip on its own history, & that includes language. Loss of where you belong, where you originate from, can cause that unsettled "icky" feeling. It diminishes pride also, I think. You lack the community spirit, because you have NO community ties. Why bother with your neighbour ? Hell, I dont come from round here !
To many kids are wandering about with cabbages for heads. & I think people move to another place in the hope they will fit in, people sometimes feel disconnected. Im wondering if I would not have moved about if I felt more part of a bigger "something" ? & is that part of the reason that we like to trace our roots & Family Tree ? Not nessessarily to find out if we've inherited a fortune, but to find out where we come from ?
(yes, I know, I cant chuffing spell either !)

I agree entirely Azriel- although there is always a danger of risking darker nationalist sentiments- but I dont think it has to be that way.
I dont see how wanting to have a knowledge and understanding of your own history and culture should be seen, as it sometimes seen to be, a threat to others.
Without that sense of history there is no sense of belonging and no sense of your place in events.
I mean this country will next year have to make a monumental decison about breaking the Union with England after hundreds of years- and most of those who will vote have no idea whatsever of how or why we got this point as a broader part of our history.

I find that depressing and worrying.

I think its an intrinsic problem of living near a 'greater' power next door. whether its Wales or a Chinese province, the smaller will always have to kowtow to the Greater, its a fact of life, when the Greater power starts practising genocide then you have reason to be worried. I agree its the drip drip of smaller issues that create a sense of victimization and being oppressed. Theres the class divide and theres the North South divide, at a certain point you cant blame other people for things that are unjust, you have to make a stand and rectify things without violence. I could go whinging on about how Southerners think all Northerners have cloth caps and live with outside toilets, but you cant let other people take control in that way, if you feel oppressed you probably will be.

you have to make a stand and rectify things without violence. - Mrs Figg

Precisely what the push for a referendum on independence hopes to achieve- to address these problems, take control back of our own country and its economy and not rely on others, and do so through the ballot box, not by the gun.

Oh dear, Mrs figg. Can I just say,that, I dont think Northern people are ALL like "last of the summer wine". All "by Eck" & cloth caps, But, sometimes some folks think ALL of us in the south are toffee nosed,stuck up snobs with oodles of dosh to throw around, we sip "champers darling" & play polo. Where the heck did all this dumb ideas come from ? Top to bottom of this Tory plagued country is the same "blood & guts" people, all trying to scratch an existence. Newspapers have done a wonderful job, as have the Government, in the propaganda banded about. Trying to split up a country just to win votes !!!! setting one against the other. "you in the North..you in the south", Feck off ! we are all one nation, we all are trying to get by. No one is better than their neighbour, (unless your a rampant mass murderer !) The respect is draining away in this country. The way some ideology is set, it sometimes DOES feel that Northerners OR Southerners are another ancient speaking country !