FREEDOM!!!!

Did you have all that memorized, Petty?

Of course! Its called The List and is beaten into every Scotshobbit daily from birth. Each item repeated is accompanied by a slap, kick, punch ect and the promise of a barrel of buckie if you remember it all. I obviously therefore excelled. Never underestimate what a powerful aid to memory pain and the promise of buckie can be! I passed my exams with nothing more than six barrels and a medium sized hammer.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I suspect I may have led a rather dull life incomparison David- still buckie doesnt travel well, not inside me anyway , so its probably just as well.

I'm not sure it's so much duller. I think counting the minutes you have left to live is about the same whether you're looking at an atomic bomb, a volcano, or an earthquake. And I think that your conclusion that buckie is the solution to all three equations is quite astute!

As to the Scotland issue, I'm a bit sad to see the rhetoric getting more and more polarized. The moderates usually have the better solutions if they aren't shoved to the sidelines. I'm thinking of what Likud/Hamas did to the two state solution of Israel/Palestine, or Ireland if you prefer. It's necessary to bring the moderates to the table if there's to be any hope of a lasting solution.

Just out of curiosity, are there any fringe groups with violent rhetoric yet? I'm sure there will be if the dialog keeps going like this.

The thing is is for a country trying to get independence from a centralised state its all very civilised so far really- we are doing it through the ballot box, not on the streets.

The Washington Post described the SNP as left of centre socialists- which is quite funny as there opponents here call them 'Tartan Tories'- the truth is the SNP is a broad church- socialised leanings on social policy and right leaning on business and taxation policy- they dont do the lefy/right thing- the main reason they have won each election with increased majorties.
Most of the more extreme rhetoric is coming form the No campaign- who so far have been relentlessly negative.
We have heard all their reasons for why Scotland is to small, to unimportant, would be isolated, couldnt sustain its bills ect but nothing on why staying in the Union would be a good thing.
About the most positive thing I have heard from them is if we stay in the UK we get a bigger say in world affairs as part of the UK- except we dont in reality because we dont get representation at any foreign affairs business- we are represented by the UK government. We can't enter direct negotions with countries over our oil or our fishing-again the UK government does all that for us.

Living in a rural corner of a rural state, I have a lot of sympathy for the cause Petty. And I'm glad to hear that violence hasn't become a part of the discussion yet.

Let me ask the question this way:

Suppose hypothetically the vote passes, and a few thugs from the No's burn a couple cars in the street and smash a few windows to express their dissatisfaction.

Now suppose the police either overreact or underreact.....

What do you think the national reaction would be. Are things stable enough that both sides would stay calm and work together to regain order?

It always amazes and saddens me how close to the surface violence lays in humans.

I doubt that it would come to that David.
Its slightly more likely to be some violence or ptroesting if it goes against independence- as for many on that side it has been a life long cause and there is a greater sense of resentment.

But among the people, at least all those I can speak for in everyday life, there is not a sense of anger or impatience, more a matter of lets us see the facts and the choices plainly set out and we'll make a choice. Its among politicians you get the heated stuff- normal people are in general not impressed one way or the other and are waiting to see the cases made and to make a decision based on that.

Scots do petty violence often, street fights, bottlings -nasty but low level- we very rarely take to the streets in numbers over something.
When the London riots happened then spread to other major London cities the Scots decided instead to throw a 'No riots here' free for all party in Glasgow's biggest park. We'd rather get drunk basically and have a good time.
Unless something drastic happens in the run up to the referendum I dont see violence occuring.

Most likely outcome no matter the result is the winning side will party to celebrate and the losing side will party to drown their sorrows.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I doubt that it would come to that David.
Its slightly more likely to be some violence or ptroesting if it goes against independence- as for many on that side it has been a life long cause and there is a greater sense of resentment.

I think I met some of them in the Highlands a few years back. Really good hospitable people, but I'd think twice before double crossing them!

Which suggests a third case:

What do you think would happen if the Scottish vote were strongly for independence, but the government found an excuse to void the election on a technicality? Something as big as dissolution of the union would almost certainly face court challenges, wouldn't it? How patient do you think the Scottish people would be once they'd spoken in a fair election?

(Honestly that might be a wise time to bring Devo-max back onto the table....)

An interesting question David. My feeling is that people expect several years of wrangling if its a yes vote so I dont think there would be any immediate hostility to that- but if Westminister found a way to veto the result that would be a different matter. Although I'm not sure what the reaction would be- no point for example marching on Holyrood ( the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh) and London is a long way off for most folk to go marching in.
But I cant imagine they would veto the actual result- as if there was to be violence that would be the one way of probably guaranteeing it.
And if it was an overwhelming yes they would be facing about 3-4 million angry Scots- I doubt England wants that (3-4 million angry Scots could take on all of London! The bunch of southern softies -I'll ask they miss your house out though Lance!)

wow anyone would think England was like living next to North Korea ruled by tyranical loonies. It aint that bad you know.

Oppression doesnt have to be overt Mrs Figg. There is social and political oppression. There is oppression in using resources without fairly returning the others share in them.

The biggest problem right now, one which is highlighted perfectly right now by the Westminister government, is the stark difference in political and social direction.
The two governments, Westminister and Holyrood are doing completely different things- in Scotland the Council Tax has been frozen for years- the Tory's only froze it in the rest of the UK this year (then claimed it was a great decision helping thousands of families- whilst Tories in Scotland have, under Westminister direction, been deriding the decision and saying they would revoke it for years).
In Scotland we cut elsewhere, particuarly in govenrment to afford free prerscription, travel for the elderly and education for all, the Tory/lib pact introduced tuition fees, have no free prescriptions or travel for the elderly.
But when it comes to things which are not devolved- minimum wage, buisness and corporation tax, unemployment and sickness benefits, defence, foreign policy- we have no say and the direction the Tory are going in there- limiting money to poor families if they have more than 2 children, changing benefits from fortnightly to monthly (as someone who has been on benefits making what you get stretch the 2 weeks is hard and takes a bit of self discipline. for many people who might lack that discipline they will find they run out with at least a week to go till the next- then what?).
And we house the entire nuclear arsenal of the UK, in a country where poll after poll for decades as shown overwhelming support not to have them here, and especially not right next to the densest populated bit of the country.
Our children that join the army are sent to fight in wars we have no say over. Would Scotland have gone to Iraq with Bush? I dont think so.

The point is things politically and socially have been diverging between the two countries since Thatcher- and its only got worse and deeper.
If Scotland goes independent it will be for that reason- to get the politcial power to set the sort of policies the overwhelmingly socialist leaning Scotland feels it should have (at least on social issues we are socialists-- business is a different matter- there we are canny! ).

er English people have no say either. especially those who did not vote the Tories in power.

The difference there is Scotland has not voted majority Tory for half a century (where the joke had been that you could put a monkey up so long as it was wearing a red rosette and it would still win)- yet they have been in power over us for most of that time. England as a country has often, and in fact usually (in the last half century anyway) voted Tory as a country- and as its the biggest country we get what they vote for.
And whilst yes many in England did not vote Tory at the last election, enough people in England did vote for them to get into power. They didn't do it on Scottish votes, where they have 1 MP.
And think about that- the government which rules over us, makes our laws ect has only 1 representative from our entire country.

So I cant agree with your argument English people have no say- quite the opposite, English people vote in the government of the day, they have all the power in an election- it makes no odds what Scots vote for if England chooses to vote the other way, which it increasingly has.

Look at the Westminster election result for the past half century- what will you see is Scots for decades voting overwhelmingly for labour and socialist parties- and getting trumped by an English Tory vote.
The only time England voted with us we got Blair, more Tory than Labour.

There are worse fates than having England as a neighbour.

True. But its also possible there are better things than having England rule over you. And that might be worth trying for.
And England will still be our neighbour (at least till our engineers have found away to float us away a bit!) and one of the main countries we will trade with and there will be plenty cross border things that are in our mutual interests, such as environmental issues.

it's alright, when all the ice and snow in the artic melts, the tectonic plate will shift angle slightly. If you're lucky it may sink the south of england! (okay maybe I'm taking this to extremes, but you can hope!)

Trouble with that theory, is that all the Southeners will escape to the North.

That'll work Mrs Figg- by then the northerners of now will have migrated north into Scotland to live in a socialy just nation, leaving the north empty for the southerners to retreat to!

Contary to popular opinion the Scots dont hate the English. Havent for a long time. We joke about it a lot, and we use it to wind up the English, because they can be pompious smug and ridiculously arrogant and inflated at times- we can do so because we like life long friends, who sometimes squabble, we know the English. We have been neighbours at peace for so long. Going back to being two seperate countries still at peace will be nothing new, we were that way for a long time before the Union. We can be friends and neighbours still and yet decide our own fates politically.

Or in short Azriel, you are welcome anytime.

Eldo could you please run through again how to fix youtube vids so they show up!

thats good to know.

I would say the English mock the Scots at least as muchas we do them, but in slightly different way- its not hatred based in my experience on either side for the majority, its much more like the ribbing of two people who know each other well over a long time.
Thats how its seemed to me whenever I was in England and how Ive seen English people treated when here- always friendly jibes and back and forth.