FREEDOM!!!!

From the BBC-

Chancellor George Osborne has said Scotland would be worse off financially if it chose to leave the UK.
"I think the people of Scotland would lose out in terms of the Scottish economy," he told ITV News. "I don't think Scotland would be as prosperous as it would be as part of the UK.
He added: "If you look at the scale of the national debt, for example, that Scotland would have to take if it became independent, if you look at the fact it has an important banking industry as we know and you ask yourself 'would Scotland alone have been able to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland or Halifax of Scotland'.

Now that sounds all very scary but whats going on here? This is the Chancellor, the Head of the Treasury and the best he can offer is "I think the people of Scotland would lose out" and "I don't think Scotland would be as prosperous". Where's the figures backing this up? He's the Chancellor- he should know how much revenue Scotland brings in and roughly what share of the national debt is ours. The Unionist Parties are going to have to up their game.

The SNP response to the Chancellor's statement was this;

"When all Scotland's resources are included in our nation's economic output, an independent Scotland would be ranked sixth in the world league tables of OECD nations in terms of gross domestic product per head - ten places ahead of the UK," he said.

Which is still rethoric and lacking any real facts but at least does refer to a study carried out by an outside body.

I was flicking back through this thread and found a couple of comments I had made in the past relevant in light of the current poltiical situation.

I said this on oct 21st:

'... we know we are getting a referendum and we know when- in the second half of the parliamentray term- no one here is currently bothered by this, its what we voted for at the Scottish elections, we knew when it would be, so why do english commentators have such a hard time with this simple concept.'

Oct 25th- "The UK Treasury has banked over £13bn from Scotland's oil and gas in the course of this year"

So they know how much they are taking but the Chancellor still only 'thinks' we would be worse off? And I seem to remember a wiser David Cameron after the SNP landslide victory saying to argue Scotland would not be able to manage financially on its own was obviously nonsense and that would not be the line he would be going down. That he would instead be talking about the postive benefits of being part of the Union.

Reading through the Beeb article you quoted earlier and saw this bit...

And for the Lib Dems, former leader Lord Ashdown said a break-up of the union would not be a "happy circumstance" for all concerned.

He also suggested David Cameron had "bungled" his approach to the issue so far and could not remain as UK prime minister if Scotland voted for independence.

Interesting idea?

Camerons approach so far has been so bungled I have heard several people at my work suggesting he wants the break up really to secure a perminant Conservative government in Westminister- I don't think thats true but it demonstrates how his approach has gone down- its so baffling people can't understand why he has done it.

As to resigning- well he would no longer be PM of the same UK- so its possible he may have top hold an election to determing the new makeup of Westminister Seats- but as the Tories would win such an election thats not a problem really. But could Cameron carry on when he was the man who presided over the breakup? (if it happens) That would be up for the English to decide.

So is this the start of a wider break up?

I know we are only talking abou a referendum at the mo, but I would suggest the is a strong possibility that it could be a yes vote. If so isn't it only right that Wales and Northern Ireland get the same options. (And this is a pondering question, I am aware th situations are very different and full of other issues.)

There's a lot if ifs along the way, but if Scotland becomes independent, if it goes well, if Wales and NI continually vote for a different party than the one which gets elected to rule them, then I can see that breeding sepretism in those countries.
Scotland is economically different however. Southern Ireland financially is in no state to join with NI- and NI has no desire to be a part of the euro at the moment. Not to mentionthe whole catholic/protestant thing underneath. And Wales has a shortage of produce, it could perhaps go back into mining in a big way- but is that what the modern Welsh person wants? Ally?
We have oil, not an infinite supply, but a lot for a country our size. It makes all the difference.

We have oil, not an infinite supply, but a lot for a country our size. It makes all the difference.

Does that mean that a long way down the track that being independant might not be the best thing?

sorry in oh I wonder? mood tonight!

More ifs really. Salmonds plan for Scotland is to continue the development of the oil industry (there are whole fields further north and even on the west coast which have never been tapped)- that should last quite a while- enough time to build up a reserve of capital as Norway has from its oil revenue. The other side of it is to build up the Scottish manufacturing bases, all the stuff Thatcher dertroyed but in modern form- clean coal and that sort of thing as well as keeping us one of the major players in renewable energies, particularly the development and manufacturing of wave power in which we currently lead. Mainitng and expanding our science base is anothe rpriority, we have a good scince base already and an excellent reputation, for a country our size we contribute a lot still to the sciences, but Salmond wants to do a lot more. Even video games are are part of his plan as he envisions Scotland as being a world centre for game production (and if that seems mad its worth bearing in mind Rockstar Games of Grand Theft Auto fame are Scottish).
That's the long term plan Salmond has outlined.
Obviously it sounds too good to be true but got to say it makes a change having a politician who really seems to believe in this over ones who are devoid of any vision themselves and can only find negatives to say.

"We have oil, not an infinite supply, but a lot for a country our size. It makes all the difference."

Sure does, just look at us. Before oil we weren't worth shit, and now look - we're rich and drunk

See! I want to be rich and drunk too! (Well, drunker)

If this happens I may have to move north of the border!

I have to say I wouldn't want to be working class in the north of England if Scotland does go its own way- its hard to see anything but a south dominated parliament emergening- perhaps devolution to the northern regions will be next on the cards.

Particularly when Labour consistently fails to appeal to rural northern constituencies. A collegue today was bemaoning the fact that despite everything the local community still is true blue!

Why is your area so Tory? Does it have a lot of big land owners and farms? (When Scotland was that way in the past it was Tory too), or does it have a lot of wealthy retirees, what is it?

Current constituency ... I'm not so sure. It is a real mix. (Previous constiuency - it is large landowners / retirees and those moving out to a 'home in the country')

There is low income, lack of industry and deprivation for a proportion of the local community, but the boundary does dip back inland to more traditional rural communities - as above. We have a large transient population, large numbers of families flit from west Yorkshire to the coast and then back again, every six months or couple of years. I suspect that there is a lot of apathy too, those most likely to be anti tory are unlikely to bother to vote. There is a large -'why bother!' attitude and a very insular outlook to parts of the local community.

Maybe an independent Scotland will galvanise the working classes of the North to push for their own Assemblies.

Salmond continues to show why he won a landslide and why Cameron is a joke.

Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond is travelling to Abu Dhabi for a visit which will include the signing of a deal on renewables.
The Scottish government said a "landmark agreement to develop tangible green energy products with Masdar" would be signed on Tuesday.
Under the agreement, the Energy Technology Partnership - a union of 12 Scottish universities - will develop green energy products with the Abu Dhabi company.
They aim to produce new wind, solar, wave and tidal energy technology.
"It is clear that the work Masdar is taking forward on leading us to a low carbon society is in perfect synchronisation with the work we are doing here in Scotland.
"This is the first agreement of its kind between Masdar and an individual nation and will work towards developing further university research into renewable energy.
"This landmark deal rightly puts Scotland firmly at the forefront of the green energy revolution and I look forward to this relationship between Scotland and Masdar growing and delivering for all our global futures."
Mr Salmond's trip to Abu Dhabi follows a five-day visit to the Middle East in October, when he promoted Scottish business and educational links.
The Scottish government said it expected that trip to result in further deals, including developments on additional direct air routes by Middle Eastern airlines into and out of Scotland.
It added an announcement on talks between the Scottish government and a prominent air carrier was expected "imminently". - BBC news

While Cameron huffs and puffs Salmond gets on with the job we elected him for.

Petty have you considered running in the local elections for a post. Your keen research and keeping abreast of things, the work you do and all that goes with that, your take on the community, perhaps you could go a long way to making things happen. We have here an mp who for years, whether his party was in or out fought so hard in our Capital that he always came home with almost all we asked of him, he was dynamite.

It has crossed my mind leelee- but whilst serving the people and all that sounds fine I am not so keen on the media intrusion element into things. As soon as you become part of the process you are fair game.

David Cameron has also gone East- he is in Saudia Arabia- but refused to allow the press to go along-The UK government sees strong relations with the Saudis as vital to advancing Britain's interests in the region. Mr Cameron is travelling without UK reporters - which is unusual on a foreign trip - but Foreign Secretary William Hague insisted the visit was "not furtive"- BBC
So why no press on an official foreign visit then? The Scottish press are following Salmond about over there to scrutinise what he is up to in our name why not the PM?
Well unsurpisingly the answer probably has something to do with selling the Saudis huge amounts of weapons, because they are worried about the uprisings in other countries in the region-'A Saudi official told the BBC the leaders would discuss sales of the latest technology and weaponry, and making Britain a major part of a massive Saudi military expansion- so when the uprisings and demands for accountability, freedom and democracy reach Saudia we can all be proud the weapons used to murder the protesters will be British!
-On Thursday, MPs on the committee on arms export controls published questions it had submitted to the government about British arms sales to Saudi Arabia.
Speaking to the BBC, Labour MP Katy Clark, a member of the committee, said Saudi Arabia had an "appalling human rights record" which the prime minister could not ignore.
"I think we need to ask some serious questions of David Cameron about what he is doing in our name in Saudi Arabia," she said.

Sooner Scotland detaches itself from these peddlers and pushers of violence the better. What's the difference really between a government pushing arms and a drug dealer pushing heroin- oh yes the heroin addict will at least have a nice time before they die!

Pressed on whether the Chancellor George Osbourne would allow Scotland to keep Sterling, he added: "Alex Salmond has said Scotland should join the euro — that means giving up the pound. That is not the currency I'd be wanting to join at a time like this."

What Alex Salmond actually says about the euro and always has- "The sterling, well, it really depends on the financial circumstances of the time. We would tend to stay within the sterling area until such time as it is to our advantage to join the Euro and then we would only do it with the consent of the people."

Found a couple of relevant articles from the Beeb on the money stuff!

First is on the 'scottish subsidy' idea. Read through it myself and it seemed quite balanced, but wondered what petty thought. I did think the point that actually we are all susidised by the deficit well made if a little hidden.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990


This is on the wider question of the economy as a whole and points out all the different factors that play a part. It seems the answer is that Scotland and the rest of the UK will have to 'suck it and see' to find out as no one really knows. And until there is a yes vote and all the different issues actually start being hammered out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16548644

I do think there seems (maybe westminster fog) o be some disbute about how much of the oil revenue Scotland would get, equally it seems - from this - as if the figures suggest even if all that Scotland should get is theres it will not provide a large surplus.

On a side point Squach asked if Scotland was splitting, which lead onto me expalining the diffenreces with devolution. I used tuition fees as an example. She now wants to move to Scotland for Uni! (I do find it frustrating to be trying to saving £27,000 for fees in this country!)

Its a gamble either way- stay in the Uk and if the markets don't improve Scotland risks flatlining- or leave and and at least be able to set our own business rates etc and try to attract investment- which might not work.
And as you say Kafria there is just an awful lot of unknowns- my own gut feeling is that independence will loss in a vote but devo max would win (one of the reasons Westminister is so keen to keep it off the ballot- its the worst outcome for England- we stay in the UK but would become an economic rival for investment to England by being able to set competivie taxes and rates and by havin gour own represtation on trade in the world stage).
The oil suprlus thing is another one full of ifs - at the moment we'd at least break even but thats on current oil production whereas the SNP want to expand the oil fields around Scotland so in theory we would be producing more oil than currently.

Scotland is like a spoilt child in a way. Thumbs it's nose at Mummy (the Queen) but could hardly be expected to stand alone (Charles).

Labour MP Topm Harris has stepped down from his internet adviser role after he posted a joke video portraying First Minister and SNP leader Alex Salmond as Hitler.-BBc

Here's the vid- its an often spoofed scene from the excellent Downfall. But is it a resigining matter really?



"The video I posted has been a well worn joke used to parody a range of public figures. However, context is everything and in the context of Johann's and my desire to improve the level of political debate on social media and the context of Joan McAlpine's much more serious statements about all political opponents of the SNP being anti-Scottish, my actions have been an unhelpful distraction for which I apologise."- Tom Harris

An SNP spokesman said "It is silly, negative nonsense like this that helps explain why Labour are in the doldrums in Scotland. It is hugely embarrassing for Labour that one of their MPs and a leadership contender - who should have better things to do with his time - is promoting tasteless stuff like this through his official MP website."

A Scottish Labour spokesperson said the party had to have "an adult debate" about Scotland's future.


I thought the vid was quite funny in places but not worth a fuss.