Is God evil - or just lazy?

Lorient Avandi wrote:I have no problem with gay people as people, I just don't particularly like the way ther are. The only thing I was saying about the pedophiles is that: they claim they are born that way, just like gays. That was the only thing I could think of to compare it to. So don't go saying that I'm a jerk who has no respect for gay people.

Without wanting to divert this thread into a discussion of paraphilias (there are a whole lot more than just pedophilia) and whether or not those are innate or not, it is tasteless and in my opinion highly inappropriate to compare homosexuality and pedophilia, particularly since it is commonly used as an attack on gays and a justification for discrimination.

Oh and petty: soldiers think about that more than you think. There may be a lot of gays, but there are more straights, and a lot of them absolutely hate gays. It's their own protection. It's pretty chaotic on the frontlines, things happen, there are misfires and friendly fires. Some may be intentional, others may not.

So because some of the people who end up in the military are bigots, we should absolutely forbid the subjects of their bigotry from making their own decision? I'm not sure if you're blaming the victim or just being patronizing (will we hear of "the straight man's burden" now? ) but it's ridiculous either way. Members of any minority are going to be aware when they are unwanted by others, but nothing will change unless they forge ahead.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber. I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of human dignity.

MLK was talking about African-Americans in the 1960s, but the same principle applies to any number of social justice issues.

Good resources Eldo, interesting stuff, some I had not heard of before but all the theories and evidence clearly put pay to the notion it is a choice in either humans or any other animal whch exhibits the behaviour.

As to the miliary- well the British Army is considered one of the best in the world and there has no ban on gays in it. I also have two family members currently serving and one friend, none of whom among the many things they find to complain about regarding military life have ever so much as mentioned homosexuality as an issue. And why should they? The idea gay men cannot fight because the straight men would kill them is absurd and a slur on the men and women who serve- although possibly not if the army was made up people of a like mind to you.

And a word to the wise Lorient if you do not wish to be tagged a bigot or such you should perhaps pick your words more carefuly before comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.
That we are all free to put our views is the great joy of this place but you have to expect the counter arguments, and for them to be strongly worded, if you make wildely offensive statements. If I were you I'd read up on the subject more before making such a claim again, the info provided above by Eldo is a very good place to start. As this is clearly a subject of which you have very little imperical kowledge and plenty of heresay, rumour and prejudices.

Good quote Eldo- says it all really.

Hey all I was saying is that pedophiles claim they are born that way to. Does that necessarily make it right, no it doesn't. I'm not trying to be a jerk about anything. You guys were blowih this into a bigger deal then it needed to be. I responded to your posts, that was it. I'm allowed to voice my opinion arent I? Besides the whole pedophile thing, was what I was saying any worse than what any other anti gays say? At least I'm not calling them "fags" which is extremely rude and inapprOpriate. I should have never made the pedophile comment and I am sorry. Though if anyone was being more rude about thus whole thing here it was you and petty. I never called you names, and none of my posts were written in extreme anger. Ididnt mean to upset you if i did. Is someone close to you a homosexual eldo? Cause most people I have met have never gotten that upset about it even if they were for homosexuals, if I hurt you I am deeply sorry. Can we just please drop this homosexual vs anti homosexual thread please? I am very sorry for any hurt I have caused you. Again I have nothing against gays as people. For me it's just like how a catholic and a mormon may be friends but not necessarily believe in the others beliefs.

Oh and petty, just shut up. You know how many comments I could have really gone at you for? Especially in this thread? Just stop.

Lorient Avandi wrote:Oh and petty, just shut up. You know how many comments I could have really gone at you for? Especially in this thread? Just stop.

So much for you being the nice and respectful one.

I can't speak for Petty, but I don't think anyone in this thread has any personal animosity for you. However, the serious forum is a place where you -- and everyone else -- can be challenged on your beliefs. If that's too much for you (and I totally understand if it is), then you are always welcome to stick to the milder parts of the site. Personally, however, I welcome having people of different views in the BBSF together; it gets boring if we all agree.

Lorient Avandi wrote:Oh and petty, just shut up. You know how many comments I could have really gone at you for? Especially in this thread? Just stop.

Feisty! I was wondering who would be the first to take on that opinonated Scotshobbit... He's a bit pompous sometimes, I reckon! Tellng him to "shut up" though may be a little brash. He has a right to have an opinion, Lorient, just like the rest of us.

1000 posts, Orwell?

Do you guys just want me to leave? Is that it? This conversation wasn't even that bad untilyou guys ecploded on me for practically no reason. Long before I even made the pedophile remark you guys were going at it with me. Don't treat me like I'm some naive gosh-dang kid petty. Eldo is only 2 years older than me so just shut up. I was being as nice as I possibly could on this subject. I know it is a sensitive one, I just slipped ok. I'm sorry, I can't do any more about it.

Baingil wrote:1000 posts, Orwell?

Ooooh.... Hang on... no, 1001!

No one is trying to make you leave, Lorient, and no one is going after you because of your age. It is the content of your posts that people will judge you by. I was the one who brought up your age, and it was in the context of telling Petty he should be nicer. I'm sorry if we've made you feel unwelcome; this is a topic that raises emotions, obviously, but you can't expect in this or any other social setting to go around badmouthing minorities and expect people to just ignore it.

I was fine until you guys started calling me a bigot. What the heck is up with that, do you freaking know how hurtful that is? Probably not cause you're the ones who are for gays. One of my friends was called that and cussed out just because he made one bloody little comment on this subject and it wasn't even that bad.

Lorient Avandi wrote:Do you guys just want me to leave? Is that it? This conversation wasn't even that bad untilyou guys ecploded on me for practically no reason. Long before I even made the pedophile remark you guys were going at it with me. Don't treat me like I'm some naive gosh-dang kid petty. Eldo is only 2 years older than me so just shut up. I was being as nice as I possibly could on this subject. I know it is a sensitive one, I just slipped ok. I'm sorry, I can't do any more about it.

No need to apologise, Lorient. We all have our opinions. I have no doubt some of our jokes (especially Petty's) can be taken offensively. Indeed, I find m,ost of Petty's jokes offensive. As to his serious opinions, I find them generally offensive too, even when I agree with some of what he says. We do need to keep our temper though. We are quite respectful, even when arguing with or teasing each other. Petty obviously got under you skin, and you served it up to him, no doubt that. Personally, I think he got what he deserved. {{{{I would stick it to him too, but he scares me}}}}

Anyway, no hard feelings. It's not like you told me to shut up, and that's what counts.

Of course you are free to voice an opinion Lorient- but when that opinion is an extremitst one you have to expect other people will react to it.
But this is a thread about God rather than homosexuality and on that you are right. So unless there are further posts to comment on this will be the last I have to say on the subject of homosexuality here, in the name of good releations and peace.
I would have found the use of the word 'fag' considerably less offensive than what you actually said.
I would imagine the reason most people dont get to upset is the people you discuss it with- although this is an assumption on my part- if you publicly voiced those opinions in the UK you would be lucky not be arrested for a hate crime. And you would certainly find only a minority of people who would share your views and they would be the same sort of people who hate blacks, jews and muslims too. So from a UK centric point of view your views sit in bad company.

"Oh and petty, just shut up"- Lorient

Now, now lorient, deep breaths, take a step back. We tend not to tell people to shut up around here as everyone is free to their opinion, even if it is disagreed with. "You know how many comments I could have really gone at you for?"- I don't really know what you mean by that Lorient although it is tempting to find out. But there is little fun, less honour and its not my way to bait you just because your argument is so poorly constructed. And it would be too easy.
So lets remain civil. Your youth only excuses so much rudeness you know. And no no one has any desire for you to leave, you have as much right to be here as anyone else does. But as I said before if you put forward such strong opinions you have to expect equally strong opinions back- it so happens on this matter you are in a minority with your views, that is reflected in the posts people have been making and probably making you feel singled out- if you choose to take that as a personnal attack I doubt there is anything I can do to change that view- but I can categorically state that there is nothing personnal towards you in anything I say merely against the view you espouse on this one subject.
As to Eldo and is age, it is irrelevant, I am not conciouslly aware of anyones age in particular on here when I respond- I just respond to what people say. Its content that counts not how old you are. And I quite admire your fiesty streak, turned to better purposes it will most likely serve you well in life.

{{Thanks for the, erm, support Orwell }}

Lorient Avandi wrote:I was fine until you guys started calling me a bigot. What the heck is up with that, do you freaking know how hurtful that is? Probably not cause you're the ones who are for gays. One of my friends was called that and cussed out just because he made one bloody little comment on this subject and it wasn't even that bad.

You don't agree with homosexuality. That's your business. Others here are either gay, pro-gay, or tolerant. If you express "disgust" then others may express their disgust of you, or at least, your view. "Bigot" is a word people often use for homophobes. If you don't think it applies to you, don't get angry, detail your defence against the allegation. The discussion will probably remain heated, but it's a serious subject, and people hold strong opinions on it. Express contentious ideas, Lorient, and expect contention in return. As Odo Banks would say, "Here to help!"

Lorient Avandi wrote:I was fine until you guys started calling me a bigot. What the heck is up with that, do you freaking know how hurtful that is? Probably not cause you're the ones who are for gays. One of my friends was called that and cussed out just because he made one bloody little comment on this subject and it wasn't even that bad.

Apparently this is not a new thing, and I suspect Petty and I may have touched a nerve without realizing it. However, since this is an ongoing thing and you apparently feel strongly about it, I think you should sit back and reflect (when you're calm and have the time) about why different people from all over the world might be in agreement that your anti-gay sentiments are bigoted. I'm sure that it's unpleasant to be told it, but rather than reacting by lashing out at others, you could seize the opportunity for self-reflection.

Anyway, I agree with Petty that we should get back to the original topic, so this will be my last post on this tangent. And again, Lorient, I don't want you to leave, despite our disagreement.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Thanks for the, erm, support Orwell }}

It's what friends are for.

Eldorion wrote:

Lorient Avandi wrote:I was fine until you guys started calling me a bigot. What the heck is up with that, do you freaking know how hurtful that is? Probably not cause you're the ones who are for gays. One of my friends was called that and cussed out just because he made one bloody little comment on this subject and it wasn't even that bad.

Apparently this is not a new thing, and I suspect Petty and I may have touched a nerve without realizing it. However, since this is an ongoing thing and you apparently feel strongly about it, I think you should sit back and reflect (when you're calm and have the time) about why different people from all over the world might be in agreement that your anti-gay sentiments are bigoted. I'm sure that it's unpleasant to be told it, but rather than reacting by lashing out at others, you could seize the opportunity for self-reflection.

Anyway, I agree with Petty that we should get back to the original topic, so this will be my last post on this tangent. And again, Lorient, I don't want you to leave, despite our disagreement.

Are you trying to suppress Free Speech, Eldo? Did you know that, according to the Bible, God hates homosexuality? Something worth discussing, don't you think?

Petty- my opinion isn't even extremist. I don't agree so what, I explained why I didn't agree. I have an opinion. I think gays should get to do what they want exept for one thing. You guys blew this thing way out of proportion. Just because I don't agree does not mean I'm an extremist. Did I say they should get put in mental hospitals or rehab? No! Did I say that they shouldnt get to do anything others get to do? Did I say they should die or be locked up? Did I ever once call them faggots, fags, or homos? I didnt! If you think I'm an extremist, then your the naive one my friend.

Lorient Avandi wrote:My opinion isn't even extremist. I don't agree so what, I explained why I didn't agree. I have an opinion. I think gays should get to do what they want exept for one thing. You guys blew this thing way out of proportion. Just because I don't agree does not mean I'm an extremist. Did I say they should get put in mental hospitals or rehab? No! Did I say that they shouldnt get to do anything others get to do? Did I say they should die or be locked up? Did I ever once call them faggots, fags, or homos? I didnt! If you think I'm an extremist, then your the naive one my friend.

Phew! Do you think all homosexuals are pedophiles, or just some of them?

Lorient Avandi wrote:If you think I'm an extremist, then your the naive one my friend.

While what you said was not at all extremist by American standards, that says more about the standards of American culture and discourse than anything else. Petty (living in another country and all that ) is correct that your statements would be considered extremist in many other parts of the world. Of course, on the other hand, there are countries where you would be condemned as a gay-lover along with the rest of us for your relative tolerance.

Er ... I was going to stop posting about this, wasn't I?

Eldorion wrote:

Lorient Avandi wrote:If you think I'm an extremist, then your the naive one my friend.

While what you said was not at all extremist by American standards, that says more about the standards of American culture and discourse than anything else. Petty (living in another country and all that ) is correct that your statements would be considered extremist in many other parts of the world. Of course, on the other hand, there are countries where you would be condemned as a gay-lover along with the rest of us for your relative tolerance.

I wouldn't mistake you for a "gay" lover, Lorient. I don't doubt you at all.

That Lorient is what I am trying to make you see. From the point of view of someone in my country your point of view does seem quite extreme, or at the very least dangerous. It is where hate begins - highlighting differences and claiming how some people act is right or wrong. In Scotland the sort of people who say similar things are either religious extremists (a very small minorty in the UK as religion has been steadly dying here for at least a century) or the sort of bigots who want all the 'queers, jews and Muslims' rounded up. So if I have brought some of that to bear in my repsonses to you then that is a fault on my part, but never the less I still find your views dangerous. People are people, there are loads of us and in all shades. If we are all going to get along and live with each other then we have to except not everyone is going to want the same things, nor the same loves as others and not to judge each other for these choices. So long as that does not violate anyones rights why should anyone else care?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:That Lorient is what I am trying to make you see. From the point of view of someone in my country your point of view does seem quite extreme, or at the very least dangerous. It is where hate begins - highlighting differences and claiming how some people act is right or wrong. In Scotland the sort of people who say similar things are either religious extremists (a very small minorty in the UK as religion has been steadly dying here for at least a century) or the sort of bigots who want all the 'queers, jews and Muslims' rounded up. So if I have brought some of that to bear in my repsonses to you then that is a fault on my part, but never the less I still find your views dangerous. People are people, there are loads of us and in all shades. If we are all going to get along and live with each other then we have to except not everyone is going to want the same things, nor the same loves as others and not to judge each other for these choices. So long as that does not violate anyones rights why should anyone else care?

But what about God's opinion, Petty? Hmmm?

I never said they were bloody pedophiles, all I said was that pedophiles also claim to be born that way. Does that always make it right? To just be born that way? From what I have read about him Ted Bundy was supposedly born the way he was. Before you say anything about that last statement, I was making an observation. I am NOT saying gays are serial killers OR pedophiles. It was merely an observation ok?

Lorient Avandi wrote:I never said they were bloody pedophiles, all I said was that pedophiles also claim to be born that way. Does that always make it right? To just be born that way? From what I have read about him Ted Bundy was supposedly born the way he was. Before you say anything about that last statement, I was making an observation. I am NOT saying gays are serial killers OR pedophiles. It was merely an observation ok?

Pedophiles prey on both sexes, btw. So we have three kinds: heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual pedophiles.