Bakshi v PJ A Contest of Scripts

but then he would have violated the description in the book, and that was sacrosanct.

Oh you.

{{{I mean he had already changed the book by having Gandalf dangle on the edge (and giving the balrog wings ), but some people do consider certain parts of the books inviolable even while being okay with numerous other changes so what do I know? }}}

Actually PJ was very careful to keep the look and central images intact (Sauron's eye on the tower being the only real license I can recall), even if he did fumble around with plotlines and character. The end of the bridge sticking out like a tongue is one of those images.

He would add images like Denethor the fireball, but rarely change an established image (the assassination of Saruman being the only other one I can think of). Not until the Hobbit.

Fair point; I suppose this is accurate. Actually it reminds me of a similar nit-pick that used to bug me a lot that resulted from the same "unintentional consequences of a minor change" thing as the Moria argument. In Helm's Deep, the Deeping Wall stretching across the valley is a crucial part of the battle and there would have been a (deserved) shitstorm if that got removed. But there is no story-internal reason for the Deeping Wall to exist, much less be manned (er, elfed) in the movies. The Deeping Wall in the book protects the end of the valley where the entrance to the Glittering Caves (and the civilian refugees of Westfold) are. In the movies, they ultimately moved the entrance to the Glittering Caves to the back of the main hall in the center of the Hornburg. IIRC PJ said in the commentary that they played around with a couple different locations for the caves before settling on this one.

I'm not trying to say that PJ should have excised the Deeping Wall anymore than I'm saying he should have made the entire Bridge of Khazad-dum collapse. Just that neither makes a ton of sense due to other changes. But ultimately these are not significant issues for me and they don't detract from my enjoyment of the films.

I never realized they moved the glittering caves to back of the Hornburg. Where did that come out in the movies?

It's evident from the scene of Aragorn, Theoden, and the others barricaded within the great hall at the end of the battle.



Aragorn says to "send word for the women and children to make for the mountain pass" and you see dudes running through a doorway in the back of the hall.

It is also explicitly stated in the writers' commentary on TTT-EE.

http://aragorn-elessar1.tripod.com/id6.html

Peter: It’s a process in which we arrived at the final shape of ‘The Two Towers’ in a series of stages: it would have been preferable to have more time in pre-production to really revise the script two or three more times, but as it was, we shot a very early version of the script – comparatively – you know; we then looked at what we shot; we then decided things were working in some areas, not working in others; decisions we’d made were either good or bad. We’d then look at the bad decisions and we’d try to shoot pick-ups to rectify those; but you were, sort of, building on what you’d already done, and weren’t able to clear the slate and start again, or you weren’t able to really look at it with a totally fresh point of view: you were having to adapt what you’d already shot. It was always a bit difficult as to know the geography between the castle – the Hornburg – and the Caves themselves, but we figured that the Caves are just through the back of the door in a, you know, a tunnel into the Mountains, and they’re not that far away.

Note that he implies the position of the Caves is left vague in the book, which it really isn't, but this is par for the course for PJ in the commentaries.

Eldorion wrote:I do find your use of the word "allowed" to be rather curious.  I mean, legally the situation is very clear (there's nothing in the contract that establishes faithfulness requirements; Tolkien considered this as a possibility but decided against it -- cf. "art or cash" in Letter 202).  Morally, I guess the situation is kinda subjective, but IMO it's not like anyone is being hurt and I don't think abstract concepts like the level of respect accorded to an author by the literary establishment (about the only thing that was conceivably hurt by the movies) really merit protection under most moral frameworks.

Yeah, I didn't mean it in a technical sense; more of an ethical sense, I guess.[/quote]

I suppose the geography was so set in my mind I didn't follow the inferences in the movie, even after seeing it multiple times.

I've always been bothered by the steep slope the poor horses have to stumble down. Makes for a difficult charge, but it's a minor point.

Radaghast wrote:Yeah, I didn't mean it in a technical sense; more of an ethical sense, I guess.

Fair enough.

halfwise wrote:I suppose the geography was so set in my mind I didn't follow the inferences in the movie, even after seeing it multiple times.

I struggle with this myself sometimes. It's easy to do without thinking, but even when I'm aware of it, I often want to fill in the gaps in the movieverse with book knowledge. But it doesn't always fit so sometimes you're left with things that just plain don't make sense and you have to roll with them. It took me a long time to make my peace with that. I do think that the worldbuilding inconsistencies are one of the films' biggest weaknesses compared to the books, though by movie standards the worldbuilding is amazing.

I've always been bothered by the steep slope the poor horses have to stumble down.  Makes for a difficult charge, but it's a minor point.

I don't really know anything about horses but that scene always sets my BS meter off. It doesn't even look physically possible. But I could be wrong cause it's not my area of expertise.

I laugh out loud at it, even in my own edit as there is no way to remove it really- by the time the Rohirrim get to the orcs they should just be a massive ball of rolling horse and man limbs! There is noway you could gallop hundreds of horses close together down that slope.

This gradient is unrealistic, the horses couldnt go down face first, they might well manage it on a diagonal path or scissor it. They tried to get horses to do this at Hickstead Horse Trials & it was seen as cruel. The back line of horses would career into the front line at the base of the hill & it would be chaos. Peejers is a dick !!

What?! They tried to do that for reals?!

Why does PJ hate horses?!

Forest Shepherd wrote:As often is the case, I prefer the Bakshi Dub.  



The Balrog's whip wraps around Gandalf's legs and he begins to fall.

Gandalf: "Catch me!!"

Aragorn leaps forward, missing the back of the wizards robes by inches as Gandalf slips off the ledge and down into the depths.

Gandalf: "You should have caught meee!"

I NEED TO FIND THIS DUB! I WATCHED IT ALL ONCE AND NOW I CAN'T FIND IT!

Forest Shepherd wrote:As often is the case, I prefer the Bakshi Dub.   



The Balrog's whip wraps around Gandalf's legs and he begins to fall.

Gandalf: "Catch me!!"

Aragorn leaps forward, missing the back of the wizards robes by inches as Gandalf slips off the ledge and down into the depths.

Gandalf: "You should have caught meee!"

I NEED TO FIND THIS DUB! I WATCHED IT ALL ONCE AND NOW I CAN'T FIND IT!

why does this page come up when i press send?

i'm risking giving my computer aids while trying to find this video. fuck you youtbe for taking it down!

Eldorion wrote:

halfwise wrote:balrog's weight would only make him go faster if he's approaching terminal velocity, which is closer to 5 seconds than 1.5 seconds.  But it's still an inordinately long whip.

Yeah, I think that would require a much longer whip than shown in the film.  If PJ had wanted to cover all his nitpickable bases he could have shown the entire bridge collapsing from the damage dealt to it by the Balrog's weight and Gandalf's staff-smash spell, but I think it's pretty clear that PJ's priorities in this scene were with the emotional and dramatic elements rather than the "fridge logic" parts.

that is no doubt what he was aiming for but for me all I could think when I saw it for the first time was Why does everyone just stand there like idiots and not grab his hand and help him? The change just make the fellowship look weak and stupid. =(

halfwise wrote:balrog's weight would only make him go faster if he's approaching terminal velocity, which is closer to 5 seconds than 1.5 seconds.  But it's still an inordinately long whip.

Not trying to be a jerk or a know it all but if my memory of physics is correct weight doesn't effect speed of falling, wind resistance does.
Galileo demonstrated this first I believe. A bb and a cannon ball if released at the same exact moment would strike the ground simultaneously.

Being that the pj balrog had wings he would accelerate more slowly than if he didn't.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not aiming to defend pj ' The undefendable ' in my view.

Well crap-balls Norc, it is blocked!

It says that Warner Bros. have blocked it. I figured it was beyond copyrights or something by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1x3XkHs-BE


Luckily I downloaded the whole thing a while back, but it's in rather low video quality, which makes watching it a bit funky.

Music of the Ainur wrote:

halfwise wrote:balrog's weight would only make him go faster if he's approaching terminal velocity, which is closer to 5 seconds than 1.5 seconds.  But it's still an inordinately long whip.

Not trying to be a jerk or a know it all but if my memory of physics is correct weight doesn't effect speed of falling, wind resistance does.
Galileo demonstrated this first I believe. A bb and a cannon ball if released at the same exact moment would strike the ground simultaneously.

Being that the pj balrog had wings he would accelerate more slowly than if he didn't.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not aiming to defend pj '  The undefendable  ' in my view.

It's more complicated than either alone.
* At terminal velocity wind resistance = weight.  
* Wind resistance is roughly (area)(V^2);   so velocity goes as root(weight/area).  
* If we assume constant density, weight = (volume)(density) => (radius^3)(density) and area => radius^2    {we are assuming a spherical balrog, naturally}.  
* so velocity => root(weight/volume) = root((density)(radius^3)/(radius^2)) = root (density*radius)

So if all biomass has the same density, you should really say terminal velocity goes as the root of the linear dimension.  But heavier objects have larger linear dimensions, so terminal velocity increases with weight.  If not for wind resistance, all accelerations/velocities would be the same.

Halfwise wrote: {we are assuming a spherical balrog, naturally}.

Of course if a non-spherical balrog were to use his wings, it would become a calculation in aeronautical engineering.
I'm sure I have a table of lift coefficients for bat-wing forms around here somewhere.....

Well when you put it like that Halfy it's obvious! {{{{ }}}}

 yeah totally