Stupid Questions

Yeah Sam does say something or think something along those lines, so he certainly wasnt too cocksure about that at least.

Interesting point about fear of his Gaffers disapproval, the Gaffer comes up quite a bit with Sam, but its always in a slightly negative vein, like when Sam draws on the multitude of names like nincompoop and ninnyhammer that the Gaffer has called him over the years- I could see the Ring turning that to its own uses and causing resentment in Sam possibly.

Although got to love the gaffer he has such great lines- some of my favourites being "You dont look like any friend of Mr Baggins to me" to the Black Rider and when they return and he sees Sam in armour- "Whats happened to your weskit lad? I dont hold with wearing ironmongery, whether it wears well or no!" and my ultimate Gaffer line when he tries to sum up to Frodo Sam's hasty account of where they have been "chasing Black Men up mountains from what my Sam says, though what for he dont make clear."  

Classic!  

I don't think that's a stupid question at all, Petty. So good job on norcing the thread.   

Would Sam have gotten to Mount Doom on his own? Well, Frodo was definitely a burden at that point. But would the effect of the ring on Sam meant he wouldn't have made it himself?   

You know how they say good questions often have more than one answer.

I'd say no. Among other possible factors, I don't think he'd have made it very far without the orc-clothing, which he'd have no reason to have and no practical means of procuring without rescuing Frodo. He'd have to chance it with the Ring and that would probably get him caught in the end. I do think that he'd be able to drop the Ring into the fire, unlike Frodo, but Gollum might also have waylaid him at some point (if Sauron didn't discover him first).

I found that nobody ever touches Frodo and Sam's storyline when making fanfictions or parodies, it's always the other guys. I think that's partially the movies's fault, but at the same time no one knows how it could have happened any differently! I certainly don't!

Okay... stupid question to follow on as there is probably no answer and no real reason for asking other than being bored and inspired by the last question...

If Frodo and Sam had failed and Sauron found the ring, would the world have fallen or would the Valar have openly acted against him to protect humans?

Good question. Eventually, I think the Valar would intervene. Conversely, perhaps they would have allowed Middle-earth to go to shit and there would be Heaven/Hell (or New Genesis/Apokolips) sort of dichotomy.

And destroyed EA ?

No, I don't think the Valar would allow that to happen (if Sauron even had the power).

If Sauron had that power I doubt the Valar could stop him if they wanted too and as they did over the Numenor thing they would cede their powers in the world and turn to Eru.

Regards him gettng the Ring- I think it would have been centuries of hell on earth- much as it was during Berens time but probably even worse. And the Valar or Eru didnt exactly jump in to save everyone then.

I don't think Sauron would ever have that power. He was just a lesser spirit compared to Morgoth (the most potent of the Ainur) and the Valar dealt with him. I think they'd have swatted Sauron like a bug if they were allowed.

I think the Valar held back from dealing with him basically on orders from Eru, until Morgoth had gone too far and had to be banished. The philosophy of Tolkien's world basically follows the Christian one (although Tolkien doesn't shove it down the reader's throats): basically, when it's asked why God lets bad things happen, the Christians' answer (basically) is that it's part of some greater plan.

Id agree with that Raddy, and for that reason I think if Sauron had got the Ring it would be centuries of pain until somehow, somewhere some new person or people found a way to challenge him (again that would be part of the unseen Grand Plan of God)- but I dont think a direct intervention to save the day would happen any more than it does when there is an earthquake or a flood.

I think it would likely have just been a repeat of history, namely the end of the First Age which resulted in an epic battle and Morgoth being banished. The Valar interceded because Earendil pleaded with them, though, so I guess in the case of Sauron, some other worthy person would have to do the same, if such were to exist and be able to in a world ruled by Sauron.

But hadn't they already laid their guardianship aside with the who name nor thing when Eru intervened? What was left in their power?

Not quite clear on what you mean by "who name thing" but you may be right about the Valar laying down their guardianship. I haven't read TS in a while.

Sorry.... my phone trying to be clever and deciding what I am trying to write. I meant the 'whole Numenor' thing.

Lancebloke wrote:Sorry.... my phone trying to be clever and deciding what I am trying to write. I meant the 'whole Numenor' thing.

Oh, yeah. I'm not sure if the Valar swore off mankind and Middle-earth for good or were just giving them a timeout. My memory's not too clear there.

Have to look it up now! I thought when Ar-Pharazon turned up with his fleet, they turned over guardianship of the world and appealed to Eru who smashed some stuff up.

I can't remember if that is why the Ishtari were not allowed to use their Maiaran (?) power or if that was just something Manwe decided for no real reason.

Eru covered Numenor with water and, I think, made going to Valinor impossible, by creating a chasm or something.

The Istari couldn't use their power because that would be too easy. They could only encourage and educate.

Eru removed Valinor from the World and made the world round, so that anyone trying to sail to Valinor ended back up where they started- the 'straight way' was only available to the elves to sail after that.

The chasm was what Eru dumped Numenor into, a chasm in the sea.

Ah, right. Thanks for clarifying.

A stupid question:

Beren and Luthien - are they Heroes or the most selfish failures of Men and Elf kind or both?
and other things I wonder about...

First let me say that I have read the various tales of Luthien and Beren many times over. My first introduction to them was the Silmarillion, then I read their stories in the Lost Tales and finally the Lay of Leithian. I have always enjoyed the story in its various forms.

Upon recently re reading the Silmarillion a thought occurred to me again that came to me upon my first reading years ago.

While Luthien and Berens great love led them to actions which won them great praise and fame, isn't it true that in fact they squandered several unique opportunities that could have perhaps prevented monumental future suffering in Middle earth.
Did they drop the ball when the game was on the line?
They selfishly chose to serve their own desires instead of choosing  to serve the greater good of all the beings of M.E.

The first great chance they chose to pass on -

When Huan had Sauron by the throat and was killing him Luthien spared his life because of her selfish desire to find Beren. She chose to serve her own interests above destroying bad guy #2 in the whole of Arda.
She made a deal with a devil who was never known to keep his side of a bargain for the possibility that she would be reunited with Beren.

Perhaps if she would have allowed Huan to kill Sauron he would have still gone on as a force of evil. Perhaps his spirit would have stayed body less in M.E. and he would have still done great harm.  
This in fact did happen Ages later when he did lose his body. But could she have known this would be the case?

Perhaps with Saurons loss of an ability to assume a fair form in being slain by Huan he would have been prevented from going on to be the bane of Numenor and to do some of the boat loads of evil that he pulled off in subsequent Ages.
It is written in lore, I believe, that Sauron was a Maiar or other Spirit from beyond Arda.
Being so, I find it an anomaly that he could lose his fleshy incarnation and still remain in M.E. as an active force.

What about Saruman? He died and was dispersed. What about Gandalf the grey, he was sent back to M.E. by Illuvitar I always took it, he didn't just hang out after having his fleshy body device killed in the battle with the Balrog.
The Maia became Istari and took fleshy forms which could feel pain and hunger and die I believe I remember reading.

I always found this odd that Saurons body could be destroyed yet he still remained a potent force in M.E. for ages to come. This seems contradictory to the other examples or Maiar incarnations.

Saurons deal was different I guess. I don't believe he was a minor Vala which could perhaps explain this oddity.
Someone else might know better than I.

So perhaps even if Huan would have killed his body Sauron would have still gone on to be Bad Guy #1,
Maybe Luthien knew she couldn't completely destroy him.

The greatest selfish act committed by Beren and Luthien:

 When they had Morgoth sleeping helplessly at their feet instead of using this God sent one chance to attempt to slay him Beren chose instead to serve his self and lift the fancy jewelry object from the Dark Lords crown that would win him his future father - in - laws allowance, if not quite his blessing, for his desired wedding to Luthien.

 Our heros chose, to rob instead of rid the world of Morgoth the greatest murderer and source of woe to their ancestors and future generations to come, the most dreadful foe of Man and Elf ever to be in Ea.

When given this unprecedented chance to rid Man and Elfkind of the greatest evil ever to come into Erus creation, our Heroes chose instead to seve themselves and their personal mission to get Dads blessings.

Now perhaps they knew that Morgoth could never be slain by mortals as was stated by Manwe. Maybe they can be forgiven this blown chance to try on that account, but Fingolfin didn't appear to know this. He died trying to kill Morgoth. Perhaps his act was only one of frustration and despair and he knew full well that he could never kill him.

Morgoth was cut by the broken blade used to get the Simarril out of the crown, he was wounded 6 or 7 times by Fingolfin in their battle once so badly that he had a limp ever after. He can be cut and injured. So why didn't Beren try his hand at cutting his throat or piercing his heart with his awesome blade that cut iron like butter.

This seems to be an oddity in the tale of Beren and Luthien to me.

I know that this tale was very close to J.R.Rs heart and soul. He did after all have these names put upon his and his wives tombstone.

I am not trying to speak ill of the great writer or his beautiful story which I enjoy, it has just struck me odd each time I read it that they didn't make the attempt to slay the greatest evils in Ea when they had the best chance that anyone ever had.

They didn't abandon their own desires and interests when the golden opportunity to take Morgoth out appeared, or Sauron for that matter.

I wonder if they ever got crap from people they told their story to later....like... What, you had him sleeping at your feet and you just robbed him? Why didn't you cut his throat and then take what you wanted and run for it?

Just my silly observations that I'm sure many other people have wondered about too.
No disrespect towards J.R.R. intended. I do wonder though if he ever talked about this any where, maybe someone here knows.

The Leap of Beren by Catherine Karin Chmiel-Gugslka. Visit lavender.www.nn.ru

Interesting musings Music.

Regarding Sauron, and why he seems able to hang on -

when Saruman died his spirit seemed to want to return to the West from where he came, but a wind (presumably divine) blew his spirit away and dispersed it.
Taking that as a basis it would seem a defeated and killed Maia seeks to return to whence it came and only divine intervention will prevent it (Gandalf too seems to have 'gone home' before being sent back to his body)- so either when Sauron loses his body Eru choose to leave his spirit in ME- God moving in mysterious ways and grand plans unknown to mortals and all that.
But more likely I think it was because he had poured so much of himself into the Ring- I have often wondered why he did that and perhaps you have hit on the answer- for so long as the Ring, and the part of his essence contained within it survives, his spirit cannot return after death because its still partly in the physical world in the Ring- basically a way of getting round the Saruman fate.

I am still musing on the second part of your question. I will get back to you with my thoughts on it when I am all mused out.

Petty.... I thought the ring was wrought as something to focus his powers... so to make him stronger than he would normally have been.

Re your points Music... I often wonder that about many stories or films etc. Seems to happen a lot. Even if they hadn't have tried to kill Morgoth, wasn't the whole war about the sons of feanor getting the Silmarils back? Why didn't they take all 3? I am sure that would have had consequences of its own but it may have prevented some issues... maybe even drawn Morgoth out much sooner than he planned.

I will need to check but I think Gandalf said somewhere that he had let a lot of his former power pass into it and that so long as the Ring exists he can never be ultimately defeated - but I could be wrong.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Interesting musings Music.

Regarding Sauron, and why he seems able to hang on -

when Saruman died his spirit seemed to want to return to the West from where he came, but a wind (presumably divine) blew his spirit away and dispersed it.
Taking that as a basis it would seem a defeated and killed Maia seeks to return to whence it came and only divine intervention will prevent it (Gandalf too seems to have 'gone home' before being sent back to his body)- so either when Sauron loses his body Eru choose to leave his spirit in ME- God moving in mysterious ways and grand plans unknown to mortals and all that.

I agree with the thought that it takes divine intervention for them to remain... I recalled that Gandalf had to leave and come back, and that Sarumans vapor looked to the west and was blown away. I take this as because of his crimes or whatever he was not allowed to return to the west.
This would suggest that Sauron who committed far more heinous acts would also be refused re-admittance you would think.

I also understand that some things can't be explained and perhaps exist simply to create a more potent tale.
It is just the inconsistency that I was pointing out I suppose.