Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

by Mrs Figg Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:27 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ You have an obvious beef with trans women Figg, you have countered every move made by the Scottish government to bring the law in line for them with everyone else,

ok, first false premise. Firstly, the SNP are NOT the guardians or gatekeepers for trans people in the UK. Sturgeon may have gulled you into thinking that being very concerned about the SNP ramming through this appalling bill is equal to being a 'transphobe' is mistaken and patently untrue.

by saying they are predators, they are a threat to women and women's spaces,

second false premise. I have never said they are ALL predators, just the ones who game the system and rape women. its pretty clear.

and now you have the unbelievable gall to claim Sturgeon doesn't care about trans folk?

Proof please. It looks to everyone with a brain knows that she is using this as a lever against Westminster.

After folk like you have vilified and made life hell for the ordinary trans person, increased bullying, violent and abusive attacks against them and assaults - all up on the back of the sort of shite you are spouting. You are physically harming people.

Vilified? proof please. and the most idiot statement of all, "made their lives hell" how exactly? oh you mean wanting to protect children from mutilation and the sterilisation of gay kids? that's not making their lives 'hell' that is being desperately sorry for detransitioners who grew up and changed their minds after being groomed online.

Sturgeon has spent over 8 years of campaigning, legislation and championing a cause that has far more votes to lose in it than there is to gain. This has always been a matter of principle, equality and trying to do the right thing for her, at personal cost and endless personal abuse from folk like you.

yet again false arguments. The VAST MAJORITY OF SCOTTISH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL TO GO THROUGH.

And yes your attacks on Sturgeon often are abusive and if they came from a man their sexism would be blatant, you don't get a pass on your abuse just because you are a woman.

I am not attacking her as a woman, I am attacking her idiot bill. It is you who do the attacking on the basis of gender, not me. Saints by the way are genderless. fyi

As to reality being denied- by who?

The people who scream 'trans women are women' and the fools putting men in women's prisons.

Antitrans folk if you ask me. No one says trans women and biological women are the same thing,

I can give you a hundred examples of trans women demanding to be called women 'because they are women', literally hundreds. ALL trans activists demand this , otherwise they hound people out of their jobs, and cancel them. Again countless examples of hounding and cancelling.

thats why you have trans as a legal position and trans folk can still be denied access to women's space, like refuges and female prisons, as this case clearly shows.

Again in the case of the trans prisoner nothing happened. At all. I would very much like you to answer two questions, the above one you ignored- Why dont you apply the same rules to other genders as you do trans? And who was ever put at risk during the prisoner process?

Nothing happened because of a massive outcry, which led to Sturgeon unable to answer a simple question, is this rapist a man or a woman. She couldnt answer because she knew it was all lies. No idea what you mean, there are only two genders, man or woman.

}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:00 pm

{{ You continue to peddle a completely untrue narrative Figg.

I'll take your last few points first as they are the most blatant rubbish.

'Nothing happened because of a massive outcry, which led to Sturgeon unable to answer a simple question'

Simple lie. Its completely untrue. Thats not what happened at all, its how the right wing media spun it, but its still not true. What actually happened was the prisoner was held in remand in isolation in a womans prison whilst awaiting risk assessment - standard procedure for violent prisoners before entering the prison population- the row erupted during this process, there was no change due to any outcry- there was a media whipped up outcry as the trans prisoner was in a women's prison whilst on remand (though the press failed to mention this was normal or that the prisoner was merely on the premises, not in the prison, but isolated from the female population throughout the process as is also standard).
The question being put to Sturgeon was a stupid one, and her answer was the one pertinent to the situation, their gender is irrelevant, that they were convicted of raping women was the only important factor in assessing their risk. The SPS finished their assessment and recommended a male prison.
At no point did the SNP, or Sturgeon interfere in that process, the SPS works independently as part of the Scottish Justice System.
So what you keep claiming, that Sturgeon only moved the prisoner after an outcry is simply, blatantly, a lie. So please stop peddling it, its not true.

'I can give you a hundred examples of trans women demanding to be called women 'because they are women', literally hundreds.'

Demanding to be called a woman and how the law recognises a woman are not the same thing at all. We are talking here about what the SNP government and the Scottish Parliament voted for on a cross-party basis, we are talking about legal gender recognition. And in the law a trans women and a biological women are treated differently. The prison case makes this perfectly clear, the Uk wide 2010 Equality Act also sets that out very clearly.
So again you are deliberately conflating two entirely separate issues in order to try to attack the Scottish Parliament. Even though any individuals claim to anything is not relevant when discussing how the law frames the terminology.

'The people who scream 'trans women are women' and the fools putting men in women's prisons.'

Well if your not talking rubbish, which you are, please give me a single example of a trans person in Scotland being held in a women's prison for their sentence? I already know you cant as it has never happened, this is the first case of a prisoner convicted of serious assault against women claiming trans status has been held in the prison service, and they were kept isolated and then sent to a male prison for their sentence. So again, your words are simply lies.

'I am not attacking her as a woman, I am attacking her idiot bill'

You are disseminating lies, half truths and deliberately confusing different things in order to attack a women in a strong position of power. Sounds pretty classic misogyny to me. As for her 'idiot bill' - again simple untruths the bill is not hers, its legislation drawn up by the Scottish Parliament, scrutinized for years for Select Committees, seen hundreds of witnesses from all sides of the debate and medical professionals, was open to two lengthy and completely open public consultations, amended by opposition parties, and then finally voted through on votes from all parties, except Tories and even a handful of them voted for it. Its Scottish Government legislation, its a Scottish Government bill. Its not Sturgeons bill at all though she championed its passage through the Parliament.

'The VAST MAJORITY OF SCOTTISH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL TO GO THROUGH.'

Did you miss the bit where I said Sturgeon was doing this on principle for something she believes in and not for votes? And of course its not hugely popular after relentless weeks of anti-trans, anti-Snp, anti-Sturgeon attacks day after day on the same groundless lies you are spouting about what actually happened.
But as I noted above the SNP are on 53% of the vote and the rest added together dont eve scrape 40% so I think you'll find at the next Scottish elections the SNP will still be well out in front as polling indicates this has barely dented voting intentions, even after all the attacks.

'how exactly? oh you mean wanting to protect children from mutilation and the sterilisation of gay kids?'

Again conflating unrelated subjects, the gender recognition bill has nothing to do whatsoever with surgery or gender changes by surgery, the law on that remains the same as it was before this bill. Please, just stop lying.

'Proof please. It looks to everyone with a brain knows that she is using this as a lever against Westminster.'

In what manner is it a lever against Westminster? To put through a controversial bill that will divide public opinion and allow hostile press to have a field day? If her plan was to lever Westminster nearly 10 years ago when she began this campaign it was a hell of along term plan and not the brightest oneif that was the aim, and Sturgeon is not stupid or a bad politician. Her calculation was it would be controversial but it was right thing to do, and she stuck to her guns to do it. I think the proof is in the actions and deeds of the Scottish government.
There are way, way better things to use as leverage against Westminster than this Figg.

'second false premise. I have never said they are ALL predators, just the ones who game the system and rape women. its pretty clear.'

You haven't had a good, or even kind word to say about either trans folk or anyone who believes they should have equal rights in the law. Its all been hostile and often aggressive. In every post you insinuate that trans folk are predators, in post after post you put up examples of some trans person who has done bad things as evidence its all wrong - which can only be true if you believe that trans folk are inherently a threat.
And you still have not answered my question of why you dont treat other genders in this appalling manner.

'ok, first false premise. Firstly, the SNP are NOT the guardians or gatekeepers for trans people in the UK. Sturgeon may have gulled you into thinking that being very concerned about the SNP ramming through this appalling bill is equal to being a 'transphobe' is mistaken and patently untrue. '

Actually the SNP may as well be, they are the only major UK party championing equality for trans folk in the law and equal treatment under the law. And they are th eonly party to legislate to do anything about it (although the Tories believe it or not under May had exactly the same legislation planned till Boris kicked it ).

So yeah Figg, half truths, lies, conspiracies and nonsense is what you are spouting, repeating untruths spun by a right wing press that dont have any basis in the actual facts or what happened.

edit add, I missed one-

'Vilified? proof please.'

'Hate crimes recorded by police against transgender people are rising faster than any other aggravator in Scotland, new figures have shown.'- Telegraph
There's plenty evidence hate crimes against trans folk have notably increased since the press, and people such as yourself, have been spreading these falsehoods. So yes, you are in part to blame for any attack on a transperson as you are one of the people perpetuating and spreading lies about them.}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:41 pm

{{ This seems relevant to the issue of facts around this bill, this letter was published in various outlets by a consortium of rights groups; Rape Crisis Scotland, Amnesty International, Scottish Refugee Council, Scottish Women's Aid, Scottish Women's Convention, Scottish Women's Rights Centre, and the Young Women's Movement among the many other organizations signed off on it. It was written in response to Westminster's block of the bill. Here is the letter in full-
}}

This week, the UK government announced their intention to block the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which was recently passed overwhelmingly in the Scottish Parliament, from becoming law. We, the undersigned, wish to make clear our strong opposition to this intervention and to any suggestion that these reforms would have an adverse effect on the Equality Act or women’s rights.

Too much of the debate around the Bill has been shaped by misinformation on what the bill will actually mean in practice. The majority of human rights, women’s and equalities organisations in Scotland have shown clear, consistent and unified support for this legislation throughout its seven years in development.

Years of detailed analysis by expert organisations in Scotland has considered the impact of the Bill in detail. This work has shown that the legislation will significantly improve the experiences of trans people, protecting them from the harms of a stigmatising and unnecessarily difficult process to access legal paperwork, while having no impact on women’s services, the operation of the Equality Act, or single sex spaces. These findings have been echoed by the Scottish Parliament’s Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee’s own indepth considerations of the Bill.

Specifically, the Equality Act has allowed for protection from discrimination of trans people on the basis of self-identification since its passage into law in 2010. This was the case before the Gender Recognition Reform Bill and will be the case after. Contrary to arguments made during the passage of the Scottish Bill, this legislation makes no changes to whether and when trans women can access women’s spaces. If it is legitimate and proportionate, trans women can already be excluded from single sex services irrespective of whether they have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) or not.

The legislation will have no impact on the experience or requirements of rape victims in court.

Violence Against Women (VAW) services in Scotland already operate on the basis of self-ID. Individuals are not required to provide their birth certificates to access services, something that would be hugely harmful. Instead, services have robust safeguarding processes that allow for individuals to be excluded where there are legitimate concerns. Rape crisis services in Scotland have been providing trans inclusive services for 15 years without incident.

It is demoralising to see how trusted and highly experienced experts on equality and providers of services to women — many of whom have provided world-leading services in Scotland for decades — have been drowned out in this debate and denigrated for standing against misinformation.

There are currently a number of very real threats to women’s rights in Scotland and the UK including but not limited to poverty, the cost of living crisis, cuts to services, rape conviction rates and the experiences of immigrant and refugee women. We find it particularly concerning that so much political and media attention has been devoted to the debate around this Bill in place of tackling these genuine barriers to women’s equality.

Trans people across Scotland have endured seven years of being dangerously misrepresented in public discourse. We are deeply concerned about the impact of misinformation around what this Bill actually does, and the perception that it creates that women’s rights and the rights of trans people are in conflict. They are not.

Our organisations see the paths to equality for women and trans people as being deeply interconnected and dependent on our shared efforts to dismantle patriarchal systems that impose barriers to full equality for us all.

by Mrs Figg Sun Feb 12, 2023 6:30 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ You continue to peddle a completely untrue narrative Figg.

I'll take your last few points first as they are the most blatant rubbish.

'Nothing happened because of a massive outcry, which led to Sturgeon unable to answer a simple question'

Simple lie. Its completely untrue. Thats not what happened at all, its how the right wing media spun it, but its still not true.
So what you keep claiming, that Sturgeon only moved the prisoner after an outcry is simply, blatantly, a lie. So please stop peddling it, its not true.

The urgent case review was ordered by Scotland's Justice Secretary Keith Brown in the wake of a public outcry after Isla Bryson, 31, was initially housed in segregation at Cornton Vale prison near Stirling SKY NEWS

Russell Findlay described the publication as a "whitewash summary", adding: "We still have no idea why a double rapist was sent into a women's prison or what involvement SNP ministers had in his removal following the public backlash.

"Given the widespread concern and anger this report should have been published and in full, not just some woolly summary. Evening Standard

Trans prisoners in Scotland to be first sent to jails matching their birth gender
Previous inclusive policy on initial assignments reversed after furore over rapist sent to female prison. The announcement came in an urgent review into the handling of the case of Isla Bryson, a transgender double rapist who was initially sent to a female prison, resulting in a public outcry. Guardian

Public outrage over Isla Bryson case DW.

Bryson was moved from Cornton Vale to the male prison estate after a public outcry. BBC

But lo and behold, following the massive national outcry about double rapist Adam Graham being moved to the Scottish women’s prison Cornton Vale recently, the Justice Secretary has issued an update on this policy on 25 January. It was reiterated that only in exceptional circumstances would trans-identified males serve their sentences in women’s prisons. Spectator

There was a massive public outcry. facts. from all sections of society. Not the right wing media, just anyone who isnt a woman hater.

'I can give you a hundred examples of trans women demanding to be called women 'because they are women', literally hundreds.'

Demanding to be called a woman and how the law recognises a woman are not the same thing at all. We are talking here about what the SNP government and the Scottish Parliament voted for on a cross-party basis, we are talking about legal gender recognition. And in the law a trans women and a biological women are treated differently. The prison case makes this perfectly clear, the Uk wide 2010 Equality Act also sets that out very clearly.
So again you are deliberately conflating two entirely separate issues in order to try to attack the Scottish Parliament. Even though any individuals claim to anything is not relevant when discussing how the law frames the terminology.

I don't think you understand. the gender recognition bill states that trans women are to be seen as women FOR ALL LEGAL PURPOSES, unless you are a member of the SNP, and then there is a magical gender category called 'that rapist', or 'that individual'. and we were actually talking about TAs who demand to be called actual biological women with cervixes, period pains and pregnancy.

'The people who scream 'trans women are women' and the fools putting men in women's prisons.'

Well if your not talking rubbish, which you are, please give me a single example of a trans person in Scotland being held in a women's prison for their sentence? I already know you cant as it has never happened, this is the first case of a prisoner convicted of serious assault against women claiming trans status has been held in the prison service, and they were kept isolated and then sent to a male prison for their sentence. So again, your words are simply lies.

Tiffany Scott
Days after the Bryson case, it emerged that Scott – who stalked a 13-year-old girl while known as Andrew Burns – was set to be transferred to the female estate.

After a further outcry, the transfer has been put on hold and Scott, from Kinglassie, Fife, remains in segregation at HMP Low Moss, near Glasgow.

Sophie Eastwood
In February 2021, he claimed he would've been released already if he had not transitioned while behind bars four years ago. He is held in a specialist female unit at Polmont and now claims that he identifies as an infant.

Alex Stuart
After switching his identity to a woman called Alex Stewart, he started a relationship with Sophie Eastwood and told Inside Time prison magazine: "To transition in society is hard enough but to do it in prison is even harder."

In 2018 he was being held in the women's section of Greenock jail and hit the headlines when he won the jail's coveted 'Miss Fitness' trophy, beating the female cons "by a country mile"

Paris Green
He was sent to Cornton Vale before being moved to Edinburgh after a few weeks amid suspicions that he was involved in casual sex relationships with other convicts there.
At the time, his victim Robert Shankland's mother criticised the SPS policy and said: "He's in the women's bit of the jail and he's still a man."

Katie Dolatowski
The 6'5" paedophile was moved to Cornton Vale because he was too violent for the male prison at Polmont. He was awaiting sentencing after pleading guilty to assaulting a fellow inmate while detained alongside male prisoners in January 2021.

[/color]
'I am not attacking her as a woman, I am attacking her idiot bill'

You are disseminating lies, half truths and deliberately confusing different things in order to attack a women in a strong position of power. Sounds pretty classic misogyny to me.

Dont be silly'

'The VAST MAJORITY OF SCOTTISH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL TO GO THROUGH.'

Did you miss the bit where I said Sturgeon was doing this on principle for something she believes in and not for votes? And of course its not hugely popular after relentless weeks of anti-trans, anti-Snp, anti-Sturgeon attacks day after day on the same groundless lies you are spouting about what actually happened.
But as I noted above the SNP are on 53% of the vote and the rest added together dont eve scrape 40% so I think you'll find at the next Scottish elections the SNP will still be well out in front as polling indicates this has barely dented voting intentions, even after all the attacks.

It was never popular because nobody wanted it.

'how exactly? oh you mean wanting to protect children from mutilation and the sterilisation of gay kids?'

Again conflating unrelated subjects, the gender recognition bill has nothing to do whatsoever with surgery or gender changes by surgery, the law on that remains the same as it was before this bill. Please, just stop lying.

again a show of deliberate ignorance, The gender recognition bill opens the door to children of 16 deciding to take hormones without ZERO due diligence, advice from a doctor or specialists. You are LYING to yourself.

'Proof please. It looks to everyone with a brain knows that she is using this as a lever against Westminster.'

In what manner is it a lever against Westminster? To put through a controversial bill that will divide public opinion and allow hostile press to have a field day? If her plan was to lever Westminster nearly 10 years ago when she began this campaign it was a hell of along term plan and not the brightest oneif that was the aim, and Sturgeon is not stupid or a bad politician. Her calculation was it would be controversial but it was right thing to do, and she stuck to her guns to do it. I think the proof is in the actions and deeds of the Scottish government.

There are way, way better things to use as leverage against Westminster than this Figg.

Nope this was rammed through exactly for this purpose.

'second false premise. I have never said they are ALL predators, just the ones who game the system and rape women. its pretty clear.'

You haven't had a good, or even kind word to say about either trans folk or anyone who believes they should have equal rights in the law. Its all been hostile and often aggressive. In every post you insinuate that trans folk are predators, in post after post you put up examples of some trans person who has done bad things as evidence its all wrong - which can only be true if you believe that trans folk are inherently a threat.
And you still have not answered my question of why you dont treat other genders in this appalling manner.

Trans people have equality in the law. By other gender do yo mean actual women? because last time I looked trans men were not demanding to be housed in male prisons, or violently attacking women, or demanding sex with lesbians. Odd that.

'ok, first false premise. Firstly, the SNP are NOT the guardians or gatekeepers for trans people in the UK. Sturgeon may have gulled you into thinking that being very concerned about the SNP ramming through this appalling bill is equal to being a 'transphobe' is mistaken and patently untrue. '

Actually the SNP may as well be, they are the only major UK party championing equality for trans folk in the law and equal treatment under the law. And they are th eonly party to legislate to do anything about it (although the Tories believe it or not under May had exactly the same legislation planned till Boris kicked it ).

Actually this is the only time the Tory party have done anything useful.

So yeah Figg, half truths, lies, conspiracies and nonsense is what you are spouting, repeating untruths spun by a right wing press that dont have any basis in the actual facts or what happened.

so yeah, yet more propaganda and obfuscation from the cult of Saint Nicola.

edit add, I missed one-

'Vilified? proof please.'

'Hate crimes recorded by police against transgender people are rising faster than any other aggravator in Scotland, new figures have shown.'- Telegraph
There's plenty evidence hate crimes against trans folk have notably increased since the press, and people such as yourself, have been spreading these falsehoods. So yes, you are in part to blame for any attack on a transperson as you are one of the people perpetuating and spreading lies about them.}}

Maybe if they didnt castrate gay kids I would be kind..

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 12, 2023 6:52 pm

'Given the widespread concern and anger, this report should have been published and in full, not just some woolly summary. Evening Standard'

{{ The only reason the report was not published in full was because the retracted bits were personal details of the prisoner or officers involved in their transfer and detainment while on remand.
The only relevant bit of the report was published in full- its the bit that says at no time were any women in any danger, and that all SPS rules were followed. I put the report as published above if you want to read it. The report was independent, as is the SPS.

'the gender recognition bill states that trans women are to be seen as women FOR ALL LEGAL PURPOSES'

Um, that just means they are recognised as a women by the law in any circumstances the law applies. That would include for example the 2010 Equality Act, which is law, which says you can exclude trans women from women's only spaces if there is good grounds to do so. That is a legal purpose. It supports women's rights!

'we were actually talking about TAs who demand to be called actual biological women with cervixes, period pains and pregnancy'

No we have been talking all along about the SNP, Sturgeon and this bill- you put it in capitals!- 'The VAST MAJORITY OF SCOTTISH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL TO GO THROUGH.'

'After a further outcry, the transfer has been put on hold and Scott, from Kinglassie, Fife, remains in segregation at HMP Low Moss, near Glasgow.'

Not after a further outcry, the Scottish Government and the SPS have been working on the recommendations for how the SPS should treat trans-prisoners for some time - the Tory's in Scotland were complaining that the report was overdue and demanding it be published, before any of this happened. The prisoner in questions case was put on hold whilst the review was ongoing and awaiting the recommendations. As a result of which the recommendations when finalized were what the SPS has been acting on this whole time with both these prisoners. And in both cases no women were ever placed at risk.

'The gender recognition bill opens the door to children of 16 deciding to take hormones without ZERO due diligence, advice from a doctor or specialists.'

No it doesnt. it requires just to get the certificate consultation periods for anyone under 18, and the length of time is twice as long as for over 18's. Have you actually read the bill?

'Nope this was rammed through exactly for this purpose.'

I believe this just betrays some ignorance of Scottish politics, how it operates and where everyone stands and for what reasons. From a Scottish perspective the argument this is a lever to use against Westminster simply has nothing to base it in and lots to contradict it, not least Sturgeon, had she got what she wanted would have had a 2nd indie ref by now and this would be an independent country. She wouldn't have needed a lever, and certainly to have thought of needing one now, ten years ago when she started this makes it all the more preposterous. She'd have to have predicted Boris, his moving the Tories way right and their hardening of position against the Scottish Parliament and a 2nd ref to know she would need a lever now at all.

'Trans people have equality in the law.'

No they dont. If they marry at 16, perfectly legal under the law, their marriage certificate will not have their gender on it, only their birth gender, meaning theyd be in a normal marriage, not a same sex marriage if they were marrying a women. Whereas a gay or hetrosexual persons would be married under the correct lived in gender. The whole point of the recognition bill is all about how the law recognises gender. It doesn't change or determine gender. Just how legally it is viewed.

' yet more propaganda and obfuscation from the cult of Saint Nicola. '

More attempts to name shame. Shame on you Figg.

'Maybe if they didnt castrate gay kids I would be kind..'

And you say youre not anti-trans? }}

by Mrs Figg Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:11 pm

So you are for the castration of male children and the mutilation of girls. Interesting how far some people will go in their ideologies.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:22 pm

{{{ If thats your fear then you are angry at all the wrong places. Neither of those things have anything to do with the gender recognition bill, the SNP or Sturgeon, or the recent remanding of prisoners, or the SPS. Those are covered by separate laws entirely, many of them outwith the remit of the Scottish Parliament, in particular the Equality Act of 2010 passed at Westminster.

All thats happening in Scotland, and was till recently proposed in England and still is in Wales, and which 15 other European countries already have similar laws too, including Ireland and Norway, is that the process of recognizing an individuals lived in gender is shorter, fairer and less intrusive and in line with the rights, age limits and accessibility granted to other genders where the law recognising their chosen gender is concerned. But if the law says you can still exclude some genders, as the law does under the 2010 Act, then that law still applies too.

But the exact same laws that have applied since 2010 on safe spaces, mutilations, castration, prisons all still apply now and will do if the bill is finally allowed into law as they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.}}

by Mrs Figg Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:07 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{ If thats your fear then you are angry at all the wrong places. Neither of those things have anything to do with the gender recognition bill, the SNP or Sturgeon, or the recent remanding of prisoners, or the SPS. Those are covered by separate laws entirely, many of them outwith the remit of the Scottish Parliament, in particular the Equality Act of 2010 passed at Westminster.

Yes they do, if suddenly 16 year olds can legally change sex. then 16 year olds are suddenly going to seek hormones on the internet because they are not under medical supervision. you need to wake up.

All thats happening in Scotland, and was till recently proposed in England and still is in Wales, and which 15 other European countries already have similar laws too, including Ireland and Norway, is that the process of recognizing an individuals lived in gender is shorter, fairer and less intrusive and in line with the rights, age limits and accessibility granted to other genders where the law recognising their chosen gender is concerned. But if the law says you can still exclude some genders, as the law does under the 2010 Act, then that law still applies too.

shorter, means less medical and specialist supervision, it means kids who are gay, confused, going through puberty, autistic or just under peer pressure, are going to fast track into transitioning. its a terrible and dangerous idea that quicker means better. There is a lot of garbage talked about fairness, there is nothing unfair about making sure its the right choice.

But the exact same laws that have applied since 2010 on safe spaces, mutilations, castration, prisons all still apply now and will do if the bill is finally allowed into law as they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

yes they do.

}}

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:05 am

then 16 year olds are suddenly going to seek hormones on the internet - Figg

{{Ah, so now weve gone from the big bad SNP doing it to the risk kids my do it themselves- with or without a GRC whats to stop kids who want to do that doing it anyway? What would having a GRC do to alter that? What has any of the Scottish legislation to do with that? It doesnt touch treatment, thats not what the bill is about.

Here's what the bill itself says in its opening statement of intent-

The Bill sets out:

who can apply for a GRC
how to make an application
the grounds on which an application is to be granted

It also makes provision about:

different types of GRC that may be issued in different circumstances (“full” GRCs and “interim” GRCs)
appeals and reviews of decisions to grant (or not grant) GRCs
revocation of a GRC and offences in connection with false information being provided in an application

Where does it mention surgery, gender reallocation, hormone treatment or stuff about the internet? Nowhere. Because the bill has nothing to so with any of that. It doesnt change what a GRC does, it doesnt change any of the provisions in the 2010 Equality Act.
The only way to stop kids who want to get illegal treatment over the net from doing it is to better police the selling of it. It doesnt have anything to do with trans law.

But on surgery, here's the Freedom of Information Act responding to someone asking about just that this from March last year, the actual facts-

'Procurement, Commissioning & Facilities
NHS National Services Scotland
National Distribution Centre
2 Swinhill Avenue
Canderside
Larkhall
Freedom of Information Reference: FOI-2022-000051 Gender reassignment surgery

I refer to your freedom of information request which we received on 8 March 2022 requesting the
following information.
I can advise you that we have now completed the search of our records and can provide you with the
following information:
1. How many under 18-year-old biological males and females have been funded gender
reassignment surgery in Scotland over the past five years? Please break the numbers down
according to sex.

No under 18 year old people have been funded gender reassignment surgery in or from Scotland over
the past five years. NHS National Services Scotland does not fund any elements of Gender
Reassignment Surgery which are undertaken in Scotland (e.g. facial feminisation or breast
augmentation). In conjunction with NHS England we only commission the provision of male to female
and female to male genital surgery and male to female specialist chest reconstructive surgery from
providers within England.

2. How many under 18-year-old biological males and females has your health board funded
to have gender reassignment surgery in England in the last five years? Please break the
numbers down in terms of males and females.

For five-year period, 2016/17 to 2020/21 National Services Division (NSD) authorised 46 patients
under the age of 18. This was their age at point of requesting funding with a view to being assessed
by the surgical service. Whilst those under the age of 18 can be referred to surgical providers in
England for consultation with a view to surgery, this surgery is not undertaken until the individual has
had their 18th birthday. Therefore, no patients under the age of 18 have had their surgery funded by
NHS Scotland or NSS prior to them being 18 years of age.'

'are going to fast track into transitioning'

By who? A kid would have to come forward themselves wanting this, then there is a consultation period for under 18's precisely to ensure its not from pressure or general sexual confusion at that age. As the law currently stands on surgery, and has done since 2010, is that in Scotland the process can begin at 16 after a minimum of 6 months consultation, in England its only a year different at 17 with surgery at 18 in both cases, as evidenced in the above FOI response.

'yes they do.'

I am 100% convinced you have never actually read the bill Figg. You seem to believe a lot of utter nonsense about what it does and doesnt do and say and what parts of law it covers (an incredibly narrow tiny one related solely to legal recognition of gender). }}

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:24 pm

do try not to kneejerk over GBNews, because the Scottish female ex-prison officer tells it like it is.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:31 pm

{{ Ok, putting aside getting information from GB news is like having Hitler as your messenger but assuming the message is true anyway, not something I'd do, this is over a year ago, everything spoken about is out of date, predates the Gender Recognition Bill and more importantly predates the Scottish government policy on trans prisoners. It's all out of date and superseded, and therefore utterly irrelevant to current discussions.
As the Scottish rape centre reports rape centres and women's refuges in Scotland have been operating on the lines of self ID for 15 years already - without incident in their own words.
Only a few posts back you were claiming trans folk want to castrate children, I note you havent responded to the factual information revealed by the Freedom of information request that this has in fact never happened. Perhaps youd like to correct the record on these spurious and harmful lies.}}

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:58 pm

{{ I see some poor 15 year old trans girl has been stabbed to death in a park in Cheshire. This world is miserable at times. }}

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:18 pm

{{ The IMF has been taking an interest in how the SNP have been making use of the few benefits they were granted control over in 2017 (family and disability benefits).

The results help answer a question that for some reason still seems to puzzle many in England, why do they SNP enjoy such a high percentage of the vote after so long in power when the norm in politics is for the opposite to happen, as the Tories are currently demonstrating with aplomb having gone from a massive majority to just over 20% of the vote.

Well heres why-

'...benefits from living in Scotland: university tuition fees paid by the Scottish government, more generous social care, free bus travel for younger and older folk, NHS prescriptions and eye tests, and so on.
While the average tax impact is modest, it's at the margins that you can see something more significant going on. The highest earners are paying quite a lot more in tax. The lowest income households are doing better from benefits, particularly those with children.
In other words, Scotland is becoming markedly more progressive than England - meaning re-distribution from the well-off to the poor. We now have figures to show how much....On this count, big choices are being made, rebalancing in favour of poorer Scots and of children. Whatever else Nicola Sturgeon can claim as a legacy (when the time comes), taking from the most prosperous and giving to the least well off is very likely to feature prominently.
The IFS calculates that the tenth of households with the highest income (a tenth of households means roughly 250,000 of them) will be, typically, £2,590 worse off than they would be on similar income in England (however) That top tenth may be more likely than others to gain from getting university tuition at no cost.
So we've seen the introduction of the Scottish Child Payment - rising to £25 per child per week for families already on means-tested benefits, and extending from those aged up to five to take in children up to 16. There's no similar payment in England.
The IFS calculates that provides an additional £580 per year, on average, for the 250,000 or so households with the lowest incomes.
For those on lowest income, that means an increase of 4.6% in annual income. For those in the highest tenth, the extra Scottish tax hit averages 2.1% of income, while the £210 average hit to disposable income comes to 0.5% of the average.
When you focus on families, which is what Scottish ministers have chosen to do, the gain is far greater. The IFS says the average family with children in the 30% of households with the lowest income will be better off by £2,000 a year than in England.
A typical out-of-work lone parent with two children, after housing costs, will have her or his income raised by 19% as a result of the Scottish child payment...ministers plan for Disability benefits also to be more generous than in England - by an estimated one-fifth.' -BBC Scotland

And before anyone says it English money being spent, no this is money raised from tax in Scotland. The difference is the SNP choose to prioritise those most in need and children and families over those who already have an abundance, and in England the priories were the exact opposite. And that difference in priority is why Scotland votes SNP overwhelmingly.
Why England still keeps voting Tory mind you is a huge mystery. One can only assume that on mass the English prefer the wealthy to keep all their money off the backs of the poorest and most vulnerable, for some reason as they keep voting for it Shrugging

}}

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:43 am

{{ Theres a piece on the BBC about A&E (Accident and Emergency) waiting times in England, and how bad they are. With in the worst cases nearly 60% of patients having a more than 4 hour wait to be seen.
The NHS is under more strain than at any other point in my lifetime for certain, between Covid, Tory determination to destroy it through backdoor privatisation and a lack of central government funding and staff recruitment and retention.

The article however also had a box where you could put in your postcode to see how your local Health Authority compared, so out of curiosity I stuck my own postcode in just to see, and for my health board the percentage of patients waiting more than 4 hours is 20%. Too high, and higher than pre-pandemic levels, but compared to England where only 3 Health Boards out of 20 are 20% or less and out of the 20 half of them have waiting times over 4 hours for 40% rising to 60% in the worst cases of all patients, its quite stark.

I think this highlights the differences in priorities between the Scottish Government and Westminster, but that difference is creating huge funding problems, and this is where it gets a wee bit technical if you don't know how the funding works.

At its simplest how much Westminster decides to spend on the NHSin England is directly related to how much money the Scottish Government gets to spend on Health. This would be fine except for the aforementioned backdoor privatisation. In England large part of the NHS have been farmed out to private companies, with the result the government spends less on them, reducing the overall budget. If Westminster spends less then Scotland gets less as a percentage of the spend.
However Scotland hasnt gone down the privatisation route of Health and have largely a full government run NHS like England used to have, this of course whilst providing higher standards, better services, and better pay and conditions for staff, also costs more. But as Westminster keeps cutting the money to do so Scotland has less to maintain it with.

The way the Scottish Government handle this is by taking money from other areas of the overall budget to bolster the NHS money and rebalancing the few taxes they have control of to increase revenue (see above post about tax differences), but this of course means cuts in other areas to pay for it. And you can only do this for so long if the cuts keep coming budget after budget before those other services collapse or have to be scrapped.

But I think the results show- in England the NHS is on the verge of collapse as far as I can see, particularly where social care is concerned which seems damn near non-existent. In Scotland, whilst the NHS is not in good shape either, its fairing a hell of a lot better than down south and whilst our social care sector is likewise under severe pressure it is coping better than its English counterparts because its been maintained and even boosted prior to the pandemic by the Scottish Government.

What really puzzles me is of all the English folk Ive met and known they are no less passionate about the NHS or the principles of it or that it remains out of private hands than Scots - yet the English keep voting for Tories who instinctively want less government involvement and more market involvement, the exact opposite of what folk want. So why do the English keep voting them in to destroy their NHS? Its so strange to me.
Worse though if England keeps on this path they will as a side effect greatly damage the Health boards in the devolved administrations as our funding is directly tied to Westminster spending. Its another example, like Brexit, of what the English vote for not only being the opposite of what Scots voted for, but is damaging Scotland with their choices and is yet another good reason to sever ties with Westminster.}}

by Mrs Figg Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:24 pm

Unfortunately a lot of them wanted "Brexit dun" and the alternative to the Tories was Corbyn, and Abbott, a woman who hates white people in the Home Office, and that was too fucking absurd to contemplate. Can you imagine Zelenskyy getting any help from Corbyn?

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:30 pm

{ {Yeah will brexit and English political gullibility seem to go together. As to Abbot, well under the Tories weve had two immigrants as Home Sec who hate immigrants! Equally absurd. And I am not convinced the way we are going about Ukraine is at all helpful and not just slowly making things much worse. }}

by halfwise Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:54 pm

We probably need a separate thread for Ukraine. Amazingly we've managed not to start it up as an issue. (though I think it was discussed somewhere?)

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:17 am

{{ Police are saying the murder of 15 year old trans girl Brianna Ghey may have been a hate crime, her family are certain it was.
If it turns out it was I am sure its no coincidence it comes after weeks of unrelenting anti-trans press across all media.
If this was, as seems increasingly likely, a hate crime, then every outlet and everyone who has lied, misrepresented and deliberately conflated things just to attack the SNP, using people like this poor girl as their cannon fodder, all have a share of her blood on their hands.
Words matter. Truth matters. }}

by Mrs Figg Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:16 pm

So wee Krankie has gone. I suppose pushing 50% of the population under the bus was not a good look. Self ID got her in the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2022/dec/04/observer-letters-nicola-sturgeon-trans-rights

by Mrs Figg Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:20 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Police are saying the murder of 15 year old trans girl Brianna Ghey may have been a hate crime, her family are certain it was.
If it turns out it was I am sure its no coincidence it comes after weeks of unrelenting anti-trans press across all media.
If this was, as seems increasingly likely, a hate crime, then every outlet and everyone who has lied, misrepresented and deliberately conflated things just to attack the SNP, using people like this poor girl as their cannon fodder, all have a share of her blood on their hands.
Words matter. Truth matters. }}

children killing children is always terrible, and its very rare for trans people to be murdered

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:26 pm

{{ I said she was most at risk from within, but I think the brutality of the personal attacks based on falsehoods and lies had a lot do with her final decision. And she walks out the door as she has been as FM, as the most popular politician in the UK.

What will be interesting now is to see who steps into her place. Best politician I have known in my life time, and not just by a bit, I mean by absolutely miles and miles. I fear my country will be all the poorer without her, but have hopes the next leader can continue the work for independence, which overall is the key aim.
Onwards and upwards. }}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:43 pm

{{ Just got chance to watch her speech and the press questions. I note Figg even though the women has effectively been hounded out of the job youre still name calling her. Still shame on you.

There are a few line sin particular in her replies which seem telling-

'She does regret not being able to bring a "rational approach" to debates....She says issues that are controversial "end up almost irrationally so"
Sturgeon alludes to the pressures of the job, saying it is hard "and at times relentlessly so".
She says: "I'm not expecting violins here but I am a human being as well as a politician."...She speaks of "physical and mental impact" the role has had on her.
"The nature and form of modern political discourse means there is a much greater intensity - dare I say it brutality'- BBC

Shame we still treat female leaders especially in this manner, its reminiscent of the recent resignation of the NZ PM who said when she unexpectedly resigned, 'I am human, politicians are human. We give all that we can for as long as we can. And then it’s time.'

I dont think its a coincidence both faced brutal personal attacks and both were strong female leaders. }}

by Lancebloke Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:51 pm

I was quite surprised to see the news today. While I don't agree with some of her politics, I agree that she was actually a comparatively good politician and generally approached things rationally.

I dont think 'strong female leaders' get any more than male ones do. Corban was targeted as an anti-semite and a communist pretty hard. Boris was regularly hounded for his personality and appearance as well as his politics.

Just don't be in politics!

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:09 pm

{{ I doubt many male leaders get daily messages sent to them saying they are going to be raped and killed.
Political attacks are fine, that's fair game, attacks on her physical looks etc are not so fair.

This though is a lot more I think to do with internal SNP goings on as it does external forces. I imagine the stress and pressure of the pandemic on top of everything else was pretty damn wearing. But its how to get to independence thats the internal battle in the SNP- the way ahead is not clear in a legal sense as Scotland is basically trapped in the Union if we are not allowed a say on if we want to be in the Union.
The SNP has long been split along the independence strategy lines, which is how Salmonds Alba came about, that came out of the faction of the party who think independence is the single cause and even if it means holding an illegal referendum then thats what we should do.
Then there is the other wing who believe a slow, steady, incremental approach which has taken the SNP from 27% backing independence before the first referendum to the current 53% in favour, but its a strategy that requires patience, and not everyone has that in the party.

It is bad for the SNP in my opinion however, she leaves office with a personal approval rating just below 60%. 3 times as high as any other UK leader, and I mean all of them over the last 12 years. She has never been unpopular and has enjoyed the approval of over 50% of the population her entire tenure - and that's extraordinary in politics, especially if you've been in power for over a decade.

I think its telling that a senior Labour source told the BBC -"It's good for us, the biggest impediment to us turning it around in Scotland was Nicola Sturgeon". }}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:32 pm