Re: We're all doomed! Doomed I say- the Corona virus thread for panicking in!

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Thought some charts from Scotland might help inform in general terms at this juncture as Scotland is a pretty well vaccinated country at this point.

Our population is 5.5 million. Heres the numbers who have received 1st and 2nd doses so far-



So we are only 1 and a half million short of the entire population, and of that 1.5 remaining about a third are minors. So the bulk of the adult population is vaccinated.

Now heres the case numbers by region, my own region of Argyll and Bute is a good example of how fast the Delta variant has spread, just prior to Delta my region was at an all time low of 4 cases per 100,000 people and the previous highest we had ever reached before Delta during the lockdowns was in mid-100's, as you can see things are very different now.



This is also reflected in overall cases as youd expect-



and in the infection rates-



as a result hospital and intensive care numbers are all back up,





however whilst they are rising they are not anywhere near as high as during pre-delta variant peaks when we had no vaccines even though case numbers are several times higher now than ever before.

And probably the most important figure, how many are still dying from covid-



Now folk are still dying, but considering the vastly increased case numbers versus earlier waves, and previous deaths during those waves there is an obvious and stark improvement, thanks solely to vaccination.              
It seems to me therefore that pushing the vaccine program for those still not convinced, sensible border checks on folk coming and going with covid testing, continuing track and trace systems, maintaining mask wearing and social distancing in public or crowded places will be sufficient for now in mananging the crisis. With lockdowns only required if hospital and intensive care numbers rise sufficiently high to endanger the NHS ability to respond or cope.

I'd say the bigget risk right now is a further mutation that breaks through the vaccines given how freely the virus is circulating now in the population. But Delta seems so infectious and easily transmitable that I dont see, sadly, how at the current case levels it can be eradicated at this stage,  vaccination and hoping it dies out for lack of new vulnerable hosts or at least falls to levels where it kills no more per year than flu does in a standard year is best we can now hope for.
The UK response from the very start has been woeful at a national level from Boris, and I dont think containment let alone eradication is even possible from where we are now as a result.}}

[halfwise]

You need the vaccines and the masks to blunt the inevitable spread of the virus. Lance is fully advocating vaccines, Figgy wants to add masks on top of that. The question is whether to add in lock downs too. At this point I'd say that anyone who doesn't want to get vaxxed should either take what's coming to them or self-quarantine. If you've tried to help someone, and tried again after they refused your help, you've done all that can be expected. Some governments are behind on vaccinations and they can still do lock downs. Those who are caught up should go ahead and open.

If you are afraid of breakthrough infections doing serious damage to you, then you probably shouldn't be crossing the street either. At some point you have to accept reasonable risks.

[halfwise]

I'm still wondering why there is this blind spot regarding people who have immunity from previous infection. Are mandates in the UK mandating vaccines only, or is there an exemption for those who have had it? If not, is there any reasoning offered? Over here we pretty much have deafening silence, with some meek excuses that vaccines are more broad spectrum, which isn't really supported anywhere.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ There was a very recent report from Uk scientists (trying to find it) which indicated that if you have anti-bodies from catching covid AND get vaccinated you have increased levels of antibodies compared to either just catching it and recovering, or just getting the vaccine.
So even if youve had it the vaccine is still a good idea and advice therefore in the UK is still to get vaccinated even if you have had the virus. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Should also add that studies suggest havng recovered from one variant of covid does not mean you will be protected from new strains, whereas the vaccines so far do protect against all strains to some degree.

edit add- havent found the study but a BBC article from other day does refernce its findings- "There is clear evidence that adults who have not had any vaccine dose will have stronger immune defences if they do get vaccinated, even if they have caught Covid before."- BBC news }}

[halfwise]

Need to find these studies.

[Mrs Figg]

Delta is as infectious as Chicken pox and that is one of the most infectious diseases ever. So it makes sense to mandate vaccination for everyone whether they like it or not. Many scientists here have noted that in the past there has never been such a virulent anti-vaxx scene. When other vaccines have been made compulsory in the past, such as for TB, there has never been an uprising and aggressive campaign against vaccination. You had the vaccine, end of story. So it begs the question, why now? I mean, you wear a helmet on a bike and a seatbelt, you cant smoke near kids, does that infringe your 'freedoms', no it bloody well doesnt. This has all come about with QAnon, fake news, charlatans on Youtube, and it has created a generation of dumbasses who will risk their lives and risk yours too.

[halfwise]

One of the dumbasses I happen to know is highly educated and intelligent, but he's a Trump supporter and when the mandates didn't accept natural immunity (he got infected despite being more careful than anyone I know) he started to rage about the system trying to control him, etc etc. He says since he already has immunity it's a bigger risk for him to get a rushed vaccine than not, though I did get him to admit the calculus is probably different for those who haven't been infected. I don't know where he'd be if he didn't already have some immunity, but since he's not in immediate danger he doesn't seem able to control his knee jerk reactions enough to see things clearly.

[Lancebloke]

Lance is fully advocating vaccines, Figgy wants to add masks on top of that.  The question is whether to add in lock downs too.

Thanks Halfy. Looks like someone was reading what I am actually writing!

My point entirely here is that there seems sufficient logic, but maybe not sufficient data yet, that natural immunity will provide an extra layer of protection when catching the virus AFTER being vaccinated.

Again, the hypothesis is that the vaccine trains the body to recognise only 1 of the 28 proteins that make up the virus whereas the immune system would naturally be trying to find a way to deal with the some of the remaining 27.

This means that when the virus dies mutate, we aren't hoping that it isn't the spike protein that changes enough for vaccines to be useless as even if it does, the body has learned enough to still have some protection.

Surely that is the safest way (assuming there is data that can prove this to be the case, which there must be) to deal with the pandemic in its current form which really is not going to go away.

And again, it may look much better now but just go and have a look at Israel where it seems vaccine protection is just starting to wane and the history of how their lockdown and vaccine programmes worked together.

[Lancebloke]

Also, I am totally against forced vaccination except in extreme circumstances, which this is not.

The main reason for that is the science is not infallible and there have been instances before of vaccines causing life limiting or ending disease. 

I should have the right to say no now or in the future if I genuinely belive that it is going to damage my health. People were ridiculed before but it turned out they were right.

[halfwise]

I think the option of being vaccinated, proof of recent infection, or frequent testing is reasonable for entry to work or certain businesses.

The immune system is complicated. I'm not sure that exposure to more proteins would make the reaction more specific to a specific variant or not. I can see it going both ways.

[Mrs Figg]

Any exposure is Russian Roulette and I don't want to take that chance. You might be ok you might not. Waning vaccines can be boosted, that's what we do for the flu jab anyway. Many other vaccines have been mandatory and nobody has kicked up a stink to the point of invading TV stations and behaving like alt-right nutters. The Polio vaccine has saved millions of lives, as has TB, Measles and other nasty childhood diseases. Mandatory vaccination is not some sinister government plot to take our 'freedoms' away, its done to save lives. People must be forced to have it and if they refuse they should be denied access to certain jobs and public places. This is NOT Thalidomide. You cant refuse to stop smoking on a bus or train and surely that is taking your 'freedom' away, but people have to do it for others if not themselves. I think refusing a covid vaccine on sketchy half-arsed grounds after something someone said on FB or Youtube is the height of selfishness. Thats what that idiot ex-nurse and Piers Corbyn wants, and I will be fuqued if I allow them to take my freedoms away.

[Mrs Figg]

Here the Green Pass is compulsory for,

-university students, schools -children over 12
- aircraft used for commercial passenger transport services;
- ships and ferries used for interregional transport services, with the exception of those used for maritime connections in the Strait of Messina;
- trains used in Inter City, Inter City Night and High Speed ​​passenger rail transport services;
- buses used for passenger transport services, with an undifferentiated offer, carried out on the road continuously or periodically on a route that connects more than two regions and with pre-established itineraries, timetables, frequencies and prices; buses used for rental services with driver, with the exception of those used in additional local and regional public transport services.
- The use of other means of transport can also take place without a green pass, subject to compliance with anti-contagion measures ".
- catering services provided by any establishment for consumption at the table, indoors;
- shows open to the public, sporting events and competitions;
- museums, other institutes and places of culture and exhibitions;
- swimming pools, swimming centers, gyms, team sports, wellness centers, even within accommodation facilities, limited to indoor activities;
- festivals and fairs, conferences and congresses;
- spas, theme and amusement parks;
- cultural centers, social and recreational centers, limited to indoor activities and with the exception of educational centers for children, including summer centers, and related catering activities;
- gaming rooms, betting rooms, bingo halls and casinos;
- public competitions

[Lancebloke]

So you think people should be forced to get a vaccine? Why should we also not force people to eat healthily and exercise and get proper sleep?

90%+ of people that end up in hospital and dying have 4+ co-morbidities that. Maybe if people were healthy then the 99%+ people that get through the virus with no issues wouldn't have to limit their lives or be potentially forced to have a vaccine.

Is that not selfish on their behalf?

[Mrs Figg]

I dont understand your argument.

Children are mandated certain vaccines, only the anti-vaxxers kick up a stink about the MMR vaccine, and then their children get sick and die. The parents who do that are as terrible as those who refuse to give blood transfusions to their kids because of their 'religion'. People don't have the freedom to damage their kids. Here, if one parent is an anti-vaxxer and the other parent isnt, it is the child who gets the final say. The parent who refuses to vaccinate their kids has no say in the matter because it is in the 'best interest' of the kid to be vaccinated, its now the law. Plus kids over 12 who are not vaccinated cant get a Green Pass and therefore cant go to school which is against the law. Slowly life is being made impossible for the anti-vaxxers to spread their conspiracy crap. My neighbour is one of those women who spends too much time on Youtube and has scared herself into silly housewife anti-vaxxery, because she is a bird brain she believes all the quack science, she told me she was more scared of the vaccine than becoming sick, and she tried to turn me, with zero success. I asked her two questions, how many have died with covid and how many have died of the vaccine. nuff said. People take more risks using Botox than this vaccine.

[Lancebloke]

I dont disagree with you about whether people should get vaccinated, it is whether they must.

If they must then that naturally brings a whole load of other things in to question.

We don't completely ban smoking or drinking even though there are clear causal links with lung cancer and secondary smoking or drinking driving accidents.

We don't force people to get vaccines for everything even though that may result in transmission to someone who could die from it. 

There is an element of risk involved in pretty much everything we do and many of those things involve one person's actions impacting another.

In this case, I dont understand the argument that says other people must get a vaccine for something that they belive (and is based in stats) will be unlikely to be anything more than a nasty cold, people who are worried can easily get a vaccine and, to my earlier point, may be a logical next step to be exposed to the virus before immunity wanes to have better overall protection.

There is no reason at all, in my opinion, why we should make this mandatory especially where there definitely are risks involved, albeit minor and likely less that if that person caught the virus.

[halfwise]

If the vaccination stopped the spread I would disagree with you, but as it seems to only slow the delta variant I would say strongly encouraged (by things like mandatory testing otherwise) but not strictly mandated.

[Mrs Figg]

The thing is, and for me the most important thing, is that it might be a nasty cold for one person and fatal for another seemingly young and healthy person. We don't know before, and afterwards its too late. Why risk it when all you have to do is toddle down to the vaccination centre and get jabbed. Its easy, doesn't effect your life in a negative way and doesn't stop you being 'free'. Because it doesn't stop transmission, everyone needs to be jabbed for it to be safe for everyone, call it hive protection, same as if Africans are not jabbed it makes it unsafe for the world. If Africans and South Americans are not getting jabbed, new variants emerge and we are in lockdown again before you know it. Not good.

[Mrs Figg]

oh boy, in England its chaos. Full on huge festivals like before 2020 are resulting in mass super spreading events. Absolute, full on herd immunity, just letting it rip. Fucking barking Mad!

[chris63]

[Mrs Figg]

Bloody heck that's depressing. The brainwashing of these people is tragic. When I was a kid social media didn't exist, anti-vaxxers didnt exist. You just had the fucking vaccine, end of story. That's why people don't get Polio and TB any more. I cant bear to listen to these poor fools.

Here they are seriously thinking of making the jab mandatory, and I totally agree, as does most of society. The minority may refuse but they wont be able to live freely and denied access to many things which will give them less freedom.

[Mrs Figg]

So it looks like full vaccine mandate here starts in October, all working age people in public and private work must be vaccinated. If they refuse they wont be sacked but they and their employers will be sanctioned and fined. Its a good idea. I think we are the only European country to mandate vaccines. I had my first use of the Green Pass yesterday, at the library, had my pass scanned by the App and had my temperature taken and was told to use the hand sanitiser gel provided. The other day I had to go to the airport to ask a question about travel and was only allowed in once I had got sprayed from head to foot in an entrance booth with some kind of weirdo mist, its probably ozone or something.

[halfwise]

that spray down is a bit odd. We know by now that nearly all transmission is by aerosol - the wiping down just isn't so important.

[Mrs Figg]

I guess it makes sense to disinfect before getting on seats which thousands will have used.

[halfwise]

There's sense in doing that in a more open environment than a plane cabin, though spraying people is more area to cover than seats.