Re: We're all doomed! Doomed I say- the Corona virus thread for panicking in!

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ But does debt actually matter or mean anything anyway? I mean US debt is currently about $20 trillion! An unenvisionable amount of money. Does anyone think they are ever paying that back? It just keeps going up. And it doesnt stop people going to work, buisnesses existing, government functioning, theres still food on shelves and fuel at the pumps. It doesnt seem to matter. And whenever they need more, such as in our current crisis they just put themselves even further in to debt. And it doesnt seem to make a difference. It all seems to be a bit of a farce and a mirage anyway, imaginary numbers being shuffled about.}}

[Lancebloke]

It all gets paid pack, normally with a reasonable interest rate.

You can only spend as much as you can effectively manage through national income generated. If everyone goes back to zero thalen you are effectively giving some countries a windfall of hundreds of billions that we know they can pay back, because they already do, in either a whole load of new borrowing or in not having to service existing borrowing.

Countries that are already struggling and have bad credit records may not be able to reborrow anything... how would they keep up when already behind?

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ In which case something like, countries whose debts clearly outstrip their possible national income get their debts nulified. At same time a UN fund would be set up that then go in to improve infrastructure, housing etc and make it attractive to modern business and investment, and wipe their bad credit rating.
What they have to agree too is complete oversight of the infrastructure work and where the money is being spent, and they can only borrow within the threshold of national income, also overseen in much the same as nuclear deals and stuff are to prevent corruption and wastage of funds.
And as added bonus war, illegal government overthrow and the like that plaques many of these nations would all be reason for the deal to end and their debt placed back upon them, giving incentive for more stability. And once people have stuff and a more settled society revolution is less likely, as then they have something to lose.
And I'd incentivise the funding of this by simulteaonsly rasing interest on debt of the most wealthy countries by a small fraction, whilst cutting their actual debt by several billion/trillion as applicable to scale of debt. Which wouldn't actually cost anything really as in practise everyone would just borrow back to where they were in fairly short time, but with that little bit higher rate. But gives an angle to sell it by to the public.
This way it'd at least give a chance and make it a fairer more level playing field. }}

[Lancebloke]

Interesting concept, although that would also have many problems of which the main one would be countries just wouldn't sign up to it. Why would the people of Idaho give a shit about the people of Mozambique when 5% of them dont have a job and a significant portion live below the poverty line? They, alongside many other Americans and other countries, would see this as anti-free market.

Also, I think a lot of these countries already have plenty of incentive but they can't seem to get over their own internal problems. More money is often a driver behind more corruption and fighting so those issues really need to be fixed first.

[Pettytyrant101]

Why would the people of Idaho give a shit about the people of Mozambique - Lance

{{Because it souds like a good deal- if its paid for by increasing debt on trillions then the actual percentage increase would need only be small, sounding, probably less than 1% whilst saying 'but we'll cut 2 trillion from your national debt.' It sounds like a good deal, its not because the increase is permanent the debt reduction a one off that would quickly creep back up.
But the incentive for Western government to go for it is increased global stability, and an increase in global trading potential, which has driven governments to do stuff since time immorial.
And big business would like it because they would be in line for the big contracts on the infrastructure improvements the fund pays for.
As to internal issues, its a matter of conditions- they only get the money and the help if they agree to the terms. Break the terms and the whole thing stops and the debt is placed back on them with if necesssary penalties. The old carrot and the stick approach.}}

[halfwise]

I'm with Petty on this one. Money is not a conserved quantity, it's a social construct. It's all a matter of confidence - if you feel the country is strong enough you just go with it. Supposedly the origin of money is army foraging - they'd offer this thing called money for what they took and folks had no choice but to accept it.

Yeah, debt doesn't matter if you're the right county. But it will be used as political football.

[Lancebloke]

Original money was of value because it was made of something that had intrinsic value.

The coins and notes that you have now are in themselves pieces if debt (i am not sure about dollars, but read the piece of plastic that a £10 note is printed on) and since the removal of the gold and silver standards, the entire monetary system is based on debt.

We now have far more debt that resources... there are not enough "things" to barter with to not have a debt based monetary system.

Savings accounts are all debt based. Pensions are all debt based. Investments that companies make to create whatever they are trying to create are all debt based.

If everyone decided that forgiving debt was going to happen, it would require a complete overhaul of the way society works... complete and total overhaul.

[Mrs Figg]

So here we are in lockdown once again, with no chance of going anywhere or doing anything I have done some comfort travelling around the world with Google Earth street maps. I know it is still, no sound, no smells and all that but I have seen places that I will never get to see in my real life. Yesterday I saw the pyramids of Giza and the Sphinx. I was amazed at how arid and bone dry everything looked, I saw all the camels and the shabby roads. Then I went to Jerusalem to the Mount of Olives, which was nothing like my romantic image of the place. Then I went to Bali to look at the temples. I went to New Zealand and followed a trail to Cathedral Cove, the plants looked very strange to a Northern hemisphere person. Today I think I will have a look at Singapore or Hong Kong. It is fascinating stuff. oh yes i also went to New York to look at Times Square but the maps stop before you can get there, so I went to Manhatten and then the Park, I must admit it looks like it is bursting with people, not sure if I could cope with that amount of humanity squeezed between massive buildings, so I might go and look for some Brownstone buildings and quieter areas instead. I am really enjoying my virtual travels.

[Pettytyrant101]

the plants looked very strange to a Northern hemisphere person- Figg

{{You see, I told you the grass was wrong there!!!! }}

[Lancebloke]

Ah. The old virtual Google Maps tour!

I get a brochure thing from Trailfinders every so often and use that to look at some of the places that I want to go to!

If it is a list of places you will never go because you are having a "fucking lockdown because of bastard virus" reaction, then it will all be done with at some point. If there are either reasons (time, money etc) then the Internet is a wonderful thing!

Feel free to watch some of my videos if you fancy.

[azriel]

[Mrs Figg]

the plants looked very strange to a Northern hemisphere person- Figg

{{You see, I told you the grass was wrong there!!!! }}

[Mrs Figg]

fantastic Lance I enjoyed those, was the prison Alcatraz? The Park looks lovely, I want to have a carriage ride too.

[Mrs Figg]

I want to go here

[Lancebloke]

fantastic Lance I enjoyed those, was the prison Alcatraz? The Park looks lovely, I want to have a carriage ride too.

Yes, that was Alcatraz. Very interesting place!

[Lancebloke]

Lockdown 2.0 incoming?

Or is this lockdown 1.0? Was the first one a proof of concept v0.1?

[malickfan]

Yeah, apparently Boris will be announcing something at 4pm today? Sounds like another national lockdown is one the way (though not clear if this will be just England, or UK wide), reading rumours/suggestions it may be a temporary 4-6 week* thing? though if the schools/shops remain open what good is it going to do...

*Though the first lockdown was supposed to be only for three or four weeks...at ended up being nearly 15...

so much for a cheerful christmas period...

[halfwise]

This pretty much nails it over here:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/why-are-covid-19-cases-spiking-in-the-midwest-185443648.html

[Mrs Figg]

yep lockdown 2 for the UK but the press conference was late because Johnson was watching the rugby.

[chris63]

Not one case of covid in the whole of Australia today. Got it pretty good at the moment. Could all go pair shaped again. Only takes one.

[halfwise]

This is an interesting point.  The Czechs did such a good job controlling covid right from the get-go that they thought it was over and let themselves go, with devastating consequences.  I can see this in New York, where because we got slammed a few months ago, right now even though we are far below the numbers elsewhere, everyone is still wearing masks.  You go a few hours away and everyone is acting like it doesn't exist, though the numbers show an exponential undercurrent that is higher than currently seen in NYC and may nail them this winter.

https://news.yahoo.com/czech-republic-goes-full-trump-095539118.html

[Mrs Figg]

its getting worse here, I think we are heading for another lockdown.

[Lancebloke]

Well, some potentially good news on the vaccine front.

Still not any idea of how long immunity lasts it seems so any vaccine programme would really need to be adopted by the masses to kill this thing off quickly!

I really hope that this doesn't end up being a red herring!

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ yeah on the surface its good news. So here's hoping- still looking at well into next year before it could realistically be rolled out to enough folk to make a difference. But hopefully we are getting there. }}

[Mrs Figg]

it is fantastic news. 90% is pretty great stuff. Roll on 2021.