Re: We're all doomed! Doomed I say- the Corona virus thread for panicking in!

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ 'Ian Blackford said he had spoken to Ms Ferrier, who accepted that what she had done was wrong.
He said: "Margaret will be referring herself to the parliamentary standards commissioner as well as the police.'- BBC

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Trump and Melania have covid. Would rather he pulls through and lets the voters defeat him over a virus doing it, but its hardly a suprise either after his non-mask wearing mass rallies. Worry is though if he does survive, especially if he is one of lucky ones who dont get symptoms too badly, he'll probably use his recovery as something to brag about, claim Biden would never have surivived it as he's too weak, and further downplay the danger it poses to others.}}

[Lancebloke]

The thing with herd immunity is the incredible risks, if you let it rip through the population just shielding the vulnerable. The problem is you don't know who are the vulnerable people until it is to late. I think herd immunity is madness. It shouldn't be either or, the UK could have been like New Zealand, why should innocent people have to play play Russian Roulette because of the Tory fuckwits?
plus that covidiot woman should be arrested and charged, never mind having the whip removed, that is the least of what should happen to her. What a selfish and dangerous bird brain.

The UK could never have been like New Zealand... that is not a realistic or practical thing to think. The UK has far more connections to other countries and to other parts of the UK with much denser population areas where there is a lot population movement for jobs etc.

You are trying to compare a country with literally 2/3 of the population of London, with that population spread across an area 10% bigger than the whole of the UK.

That is not a fair comparison.

At this point Figgy, I dont think it is as dangerous as to how this is potentially going to end up. We have already put an incredible dent in the economy with entire sectors on the brink of collapse.

In the next month we could be seeing figures heading up towards where they were earlier in the year with the potential that we could end up with people being re-infected as their bodily defences wear off.

We are shutting down more and more bits of life again, putting strain on hundreds of thousands of households and our emergency services.

Our kids cannot get back in to education because of frequent outbreaks shutting down schools and universities.

Winter is most definitely coming so we now have to deal with the extra pressure that brings whole already having an incredible backlog of undiagnosed medical problems brewing.

How much more dangerous can it get??????????

We know far more about the virus now and the profile of people that it impacts the most. Have them shield for 2 months with relevant support networks in place and let the virus do its thing.

Herd immunity is a thing. If the virus cannot spread because the majority have had it recently then a problem that is having impacts that will probably last decades has the potential to last no more than a year or two.

There will be deaths but that is just a fact whichever way around you do this. The point is, which method results in the least deaths and suffering over all.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ The biggest risk I see with herd immunity is we dont know if it works. We've never developed it for flu or even the common cold. }}

[Lancebloke]

Herd immunity doesn't necessarily mean everyone is immune forever, it can mean you get enough people immune for a short period so that the virus can no longer spread and therefore dies off.

[halfwise]

Trump has tested positive for Corona virus, but is asymptomatic as yet.

"Hopes and prayers" doesn't even begin to cover my feelings right now...

[Lancebloke]

Could do with him needing some intense hospital treatment really.

[Mrs Figg]

I don't see why we couldn't have been like New Zealand which is an island with well defined borders, stopping all flights was possible for the UK, they actually did it, but too slowly. We could have been like South Korea, with competent leaders, there is absolutely no way that people should be put in the situation where it is Russian Roulette or a damaged economy, but as the virus is now totally out of control in the UK there seems to be no alternative in effect to just letting it rip through society unchecked. This was 100% avoidable. Herd immunity is a myth, it is a get out of jail card for the likes of Cummings. he just wants to cull the old and infirm. The problem with even trying herd immunity, it is a lottery, and a pretty sick one. The so called government will just have to stump up and save whole industries, they did this, it is their fault. I agree that saving what's left of the economy is essential but health comes first.

As for Trump...why is it that populist dictators get it?

[halfwise]

People like Trump have so much self confidence they think they are invincible. Despite being a germaphobe (which I think is more about his disdain for people than actual worry about getting sick) he refused to stop his idiotic rallies - and though he didn't get it directly from that his staff had to be out there organizing. Eventually it got to him.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ One of things I am finding interesting about all this is its first time in my life a crisis which has badly effected the economy is hitting the upper middle, and top class harder than the bottom. Turns out in a crisis you dont need most of the middle classes or upper classes- you need people manning the tills in shops, cleaners, bin men, bus drivers, taxi drivers, janitors, carer workers, all the jobs society has looked down on, mocked those who do them and left them underpaid and forgotten.
At the bottom end the economy has not changed, in fact theres more work at this end than Ive seen in a long time, even in my small town care work and supermarkets jobs are freely available, they cant hire enough right now and so its also coming with a general increase is wages as they scrap for workers.
And because it previously been a case of blaming the working class and working poor for the bad economies in the past- see the last recession where the poor were targeted as been the lazy cause of middle class woes, leeching benefits off the system name called as scroungers and spongers, when in reality the very top banking sector destroyed the economy and the poor were used to pay for it- now the shoes on the other foot. The working poor are pretty much working same as they were before because they do the actual essential work to keeping everything going, and the middle and top are screaming blue murder to end lockdowns and reopen the economy as for once they are the ones taking the hit this time not the poor. }}

[halfwise]

Depends on what you mean by "hitting": the lower classes are at more risk of catching the disease because of the types of jobs they have. On the other hand, the upper classes are more likely to have jobs that can be done from home. So I disagree that the middle and upper classes are being hit harder.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Its true the risk is higher at bottom, thats always the case however with every virus thats ever been, a mix of poverty, living conditions, diet, density of people and the fact what they do is actually necessary for society to continue functioning, so has to be done. But I was talking more of a financial hit, not health.
If you look at those who are crying out most for repopenings, no lockdowns, its the buisness and property owners, its multinationals and huge private corporations, its city fininancial institutions, its the Boris's and Trump's of the world.
At bottom however job and wages are actually a bit better than pre-virus because of the now accepted risk and need to fill these positions. }}

[halfwise]

Still not completely buying it. Businesses make money off the backs of their floor level workers. If people aren't buying as many clothes, it's likely the store will cut down on staff, so they get hit. Same with hotels, etc. The only property owners who lose money or those that have such services. If the property owners aren't taking a direct cut of the business (renting not owning) they aren't necessarily lowering rent. No, I think the upper classes are doing much better out of this whole thing. They control the money and they won't take a pay cut if they can help it.

[Mrs Figg]

so many shops are closing and hotels as well, if people can easily find alternative work I think that is great, but I am not sure the job market is that great at the moment. could be wrong but the only people I see with a lot of work are delivery drivers.

[halfwise]

Yeah if I had a ton of money to invest 6 months ago it would all go to amazon, zoom, netflix, UPS.

[Lancebloke]

Figgy - we couldn't be like New Zealand for all of the reasons I have listed. It doesn't mean we could have done better (I am not sure i agree with that either) but we couldn't do the same.

You just need to look at China. That is the right idea for controlling the virus in hugely dense, highly connecte, mass population centres but I think the UK would be in revolt if people here were treated as they were there.

As for the economy.... people with a lot of liquidity are going to make a killing out of this financial downturn. For the most part it seems like we are having a redistribution of jobs at the moment. That will probably be overtaken by losses as stimulus starts to roll off (as the government really cannot pay for everything without getting in to huge amounts of debt) and businesses collapse.

And this is where the debate will go or forever and be taught about in school one day. How many lives will that cost? More or less than ramping up as much as we can and then letting the virus do its thing?

Herd immunity is totally not a myth by the way. Many diseases have disappeared or become less of an issue because of it. It doesn't mean it is the right course of action always, but sometimes it may be if the diseases behaviour allows and the alternative is more damaging

Rich people have been and will be ploughing money in to places where they can take a few million in loses with one or two bets but will be making 10 or 20 times that on the rest over the next 5-10 years.

[Mrs Figg]

The only time herd immunity has worked was with smallpox and that was with total vaccination of all populations in the world. It just doesn't work normally, it would need 60% of the UK population, that is about 36 million people being immune through having had the disease, and that could be millions of dead. I for one think it is a mirage, and very convenient for Cummings to promote it.

[Lancebloke]

Herd immunity has worked throughout human history for many diseases. Medicine has done extraordinary things but one negative is the impact it has had in the body's ability to defend itself, which is one reason why we have so many auto-immune problems these days.

And I am trying to take politics out of it. Cummings is a prick and I don't care what he says. These discussions (as with everything these days it seems) seem to be more about point scoring than anything fact based. Maybe we should assess the facts and not the people who spout them.

[Mrs Figg]

But you cant separate the two unfortunately because political decisions kill people. These things don't happen in a vacuum. I point to Cummings not to point score but as an example of someone who advocates herd immunity, which is a political decision, its not a humanistic or medical decision is it because he isn't a doctor or scientist. The facts are clear, he wanted herd immunity, he pushed for it, he deliberately flouted the rules made by himself, not Father Christmas, himself, because lets face it he is the PM not Johnson. I think Political decisions are wound into everything, health care is political, pensioners dying in care homes is political imo.
I guess a lot of auto-immune things can be traced back to over-use of antibiotics as well as pollution and kids getting asthma and allergies more often because they dont become in contact with germs and animals as much as kids

[halfwise]

Herd immunity only works with something that doesn't mutate. It doesn't work for the flu, and there are already several variants of covid-19, though I don't know how that effects the current vaccine efforts.

If herd immunity works, why were so many illnesses a continuing threat up until modern medicine? It worked with the Black Death at the cost of killing off 1/3 of the population.

I do agree that trying to tamp it down completely has devastating economic effects, so opt for a middle road closer to what Sweden did. But if it flares up badly you have to respond with drastic measures.

[Mrs Figg]

it is odd about infectious diseases, in the 15th century from 1485 -1551, and in England and later on the continent there was a strange disease called the Sweating Sickness, it killed in hours, it raged through the population and then totally disappeared. Never to come back, they still don't know what it was.

"Contemporary accounts describe an illness that began with a general feeling that something was not right, a strange premonition of oncoming horror, followed by the onset of violent headache, flu-like shivers and aching limbs.
This was succeeded by a raging fever complicated by pulse irregularities and cardiac palpitations. Death often simply seemed to occur due to dehydration and exhaustion."

https://theconversation.com/what-was-sweating-sickness-the-mysterious-tudor-plague-of-wolf-hall-37194

flipping heck!

[halfwise]

Sounds like malaria, actually, though that usually takes a few cycles to kill. I had that bad boy 4 times in africa, but we had chloroquine. It's a miracle drug for some things.

[Mrs Figg]

I think they discounted malaria because England has never had it as far as I know. Also it takes longer for malaria, this sweating thing took hours. They think it was a hantavirus, whatever that is.

[azriel]

" But you cant separate the two unfortunately because political decisions kill people. " Mrs Figg

I feel she's right. The majority of us are led around by the nose by these Apes in politics. We are wondering what to do for the best & waiting for the nod from Government. The MP's that do care never seem to rise up the political ladder & vanish namelessly into the mist purely because they are not devious enough, corrupt enough, cant raise enough money or back handers. They are not important enough for the media to highlight them so they fizzle away. We get left with the monkeys day out Chimps party.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ So the govt are going to help the unemployed!

'The Job Entry Targeted Support (JETS) scheme will "boost the prospects of more than a quarter of a million people across Britain"

No it wont. Well it will, just not the poor unemployed. It wont do anything for them, job schemes never do, there point is to make the middle classes feel better about playing taxes for unemployment benefit by making it look like the poor are having to do something for their benefits other than try to live on next to nothing whilst trying desperetly to manange their life, families, and surviving, but obviouosly that doesnt count as doing something.
Ive seen a ton of these come and go from the YTS (Youth Trianing Scheme) of Thatchers 80's right the way through a dozen others to this latest farce. If they worked they wouldn't have to keep replacing them with a new version every 5-10 years or with a changeof government.

'The Department for Work and Pensions says it is recruiting an additional 13,500 "work coaches" to help deliver the new scheme.'

And theres the truth of it, its an employment scheme for the middle classes masquerading as helping the poor, again. More civil servants! This is same Tories who froze all public service pay for 10 years for Austerity and chopped jobs right, left and centre remember. But canthave too many disgruntled middle-classes, so jobs for the boys!

Hows this for an idea, cancel the scheme, count up all the wages you'd save over the ten years these things are lucky to last for, add in the cos tof renting office space, call centres, the branding, software and infrastructure, the equipment costs, and instead of making a new scheme give the money directly to those most in need of it. Cut out the middle man. But oh, they cant because the middle men are middle class voters, and the poor dont vote. So they win.
We'll get a whole new tier of beurocracy paid for by the tax payer, manned by the middle classes, and helping not a genuine soul who is unemployed- but it will give the unemployed even more hoops to jump through if they dont want their benefits stopped.
Hurrah for the Tories!!!

And while they are at it scrap Trident too, use the billions saved to continue furlough schemes and help the self-employed for as long as needed till a vaccine or other remedy, that'd be more paractical use of spending the money to save the people than Trident ever will be. }}}