All New Who

Not just the writing, but the acting is so much better. From both of them.

{{ I am still very much on the fence when it comes to Jodie and if she has the acting chops to pull it off. Ive found the writing of her Doctor and episodes she has been in have not helped her out much for the most part. There are parts where she gets it spot on, and other parts where it feels lacking, or off beat, or she is trying to hard- but how much of that is down to the often clunky exposition scenes, or the poorer quality borrowed RTD/Moffat dialogue style, or the lack of any real enemy to get her chops into I am not sure- but something isnt quite gelling to say this is the Doctor. }}

{{I am not sure why they are struggling to establish 13 so badly.

Heres a good example, this is from the 50th anniversary stuff- a 6 and a half minute short featuring the 8th Doctor.

Bit of background- 8 had only appeared on television in the 90's TV movie, co-produced with Fox.
However he is the longest serving Doctor after Tom Baker and with the the most episodes if you count his years of BF audio, which is not officially canon, but is generally accepted as being so by the fans.

Because of how the series came back with RTD in 2005 with a new Doctor after a long gap we never got to see 8's regeneration scene. And he never got more than that 1 tv movie on screen.

So in this 6 and half minutes Moffats task is to please BF fans by keeping it consistent with that more developed version of the 8th Doctor, stay true to the spirit of his only tv appearance, and kill him and fill in the gap of his missing regeneration scene and introduce him as essentially a whole new Doctor to the majority of the audience who have probably never listened to BF or even seen the tv movie.
So character, personality, style, mannerisms, as well ending a Doctors run and establishing the lead into the Time War plot of the 50th Anniversary special, and set up and establish the secondary characters, and it all got to be done in that 6 and half minute space. And be entertaining and worthy of the 8th Doctor bowing out.
And here's how he does it-




Unlike 13 nothing is wasted- every line establishes something, informs the viewer in some fashion, drives the short plot forward or sets up the next bit. And the character is defined by  reaction to crisis- something 13 is massively lacking. Crisis lets the viewer get a pretty good grasp on what sort of Doctor 8 is in a very short space of time, it allows for reacting under pressure, interacting with a normal type character, interacting with the more heightened (dramatically speaking) Sisterhood characters, allows for a show of compassion over the dead pilot, and reacting to his own impending regeneration and what it means he will have to do if he is going to use this regeneration to fight a war: the abandonment of the idea of the Doctor. And we can get a good idea of him from all that in a very short space of time- 13 is still not this well defined for me after 7 hours of television. And its that lack of crisis in her run so far that's the cause of it.Her Doctor where possible tries to be passive, to the point that the show lacks any confrontation anywhere, not in the TARDIS among companions or with her, or with villains and enemies who tend to teleport/walk away at the end, when that is the story doesn't centre on the idea she has to remain passive and not interfere in anything, as in Rosa or Demons of the Punjab. }}

Hoo hoo, that's better. That got my faith, can Jodie's Dr ? I know my answer.

As you said Petty, 13 tries too hard to be the Doctor, it doesn't come naturally and something feels forced. Too much gurning and trying to be chipper. Her delivery is off. Also bad dialogue doesn't help. Worst of all its boring, she doesn't inspire me. I don't want to meet her or go on journeys with her because I  know after two minutes of saying she didn't know what was happening I  would lose faith in her and probably say something sarcastic.

{{This is how Who should make you feel- a very popular (now) Who reactor Sesskasays- in the last couple years she has watched from the 2005 revival up to now the end of 12's run. She began without a clue, a complete Who novice. As she has essentially 'caught up' at last one of her fans made this vid to celebrate- but I just dont see 13's run so far having the same effect. }}

{{Who rumour mill is hard at work- word is there will be Who in 2019- but it might be split between end of 2019 and 2020. Also rumours flying that Chibnal will not stay on past the next series as he is unhappy as showrunner and says producing a series every year is impossible (bar that one year of no Who Moffat managed it for 7 years and did Sherlock at same time!) and rumours also suggest if Chibnal goes Jodies says she is going with him!
As always no confirmation from the BBC on any of this yet but the no xmas special rumour turned out true so who knows }}

Good to both of them going. They were both disappointing.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Who rumour mill is hard at work- word is there will be Who in 2019- but it might be split between end of 2019 and 2020. Also rumours flying that Chibnal will not stay on past the next series as he is unhappy as showrunner and says producing a series every year is impossible (bar that one year of no Who Moffat managed it for 7 years and did Sherlock at same time!) and rumours also suggest if Chibnal goes Jodies says she is going with him!
As always no confirmation from the BBC on any of this yet but the no xmas special rumour turned out true so who knows }}

I saw those rumours, and several other- according to one S12 will only be six episodes long, another supposed source in the BBC let slip that Chibnall was rather more reluctant to take on the job than first appeared and always planned to leave sooner rather than later, the job at this point being viewed as something of a poisoned chalice by many in the industry.

Dunno the truth in any of these rumours...but having not watched a single episode of S11 (not having much desire to do so) can't say I'd be too upset.

Makes you wonder how RTD coped with the stress-he delivered 13 episodes a year for 4 series running, whilst heavily involved in the Sarah Jane series and Torchwood...

Chibnall is struggling with just 10 episodes...

{{Moffat was same knocked out 5 series several xmas episodes and the entire 50th special and minisodes and successfully made 3 series of Sherlock at same time. Moonlighted on the Tin-Tin film too while he was at it! }}

It's too do with passion. The India/Pakistan one was clearly written with love and a desire to tell a story. Not including the alien though. Chibbers doesn't love this and it shows.

{{Maybe BBC should just bite the bullet and get Moffat back, with RTD as co-showrunner- share the workload and they both produced some of their best work together. Moffats got the sci-fi plotting, twists and reveals and sharp on the point dialogue, and RTD has great character writing skills and character creation and handles emotional stuff in a less thematic way than Moffat does. They are the perfect blend for Who. }}

{{This entire side to the Doctor seems utterly missing for me from 13. She hasn't had anything as personally conflicting to deal with to express it, but without it her Doctor has no depth, or edge, or sense of danger- the Doctor needs a sense of danger, it's why its called Doctor Who- we are never meant to feel we entirely know the Doctor fully, or that they can be entirely trusted in all circumstances. Travelling with thee Doctor is wondrous, but dangerous (the track record isn't great), the fantasy equivalent is going with the faeries to their world, full of wonders but also dangerous by nature. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Maybe BBC should just bite the bullet and get Moffat back, with RTD as co-showrunner- share the workload and they both produced some of their best work together. Moffats got the sci-fi plotting, twists and reveals and sharp on the point dialogue, and RTD has great character writing skills and character creation and handles emotional stuff in a less thematic way than Moffat does. They are the perfect blend for Who. }}

agreed but with RTD main showrunner. which takes the pressure off Moffat as when he has too much sutff to do the quality slides, as we saw in Sherlock. Let Moffat contribute his imaginative side and leave bread and butter stuff to RTD.

{{{ Fight you for it! }}}

which takes the pressure off Moffat as when he has too much sutff to do the quality slides, as we saw in Sherlock- Figg

{{ Remember Sherlock was a cocreation, written, and produced with Mark Gatiss- they dreamt it up together over a love of Sherlock and making long train journeys to Cardiff! But I would assume given Moffats position running Who that Gatiss did a lot of the heavy lifting on Sherlock, and Gatiss would be about a lot more too given he was also in it quite a lot. And some of my favourite Moffat era episodes- Girl Who Waited, God Complex and many more are from the time Sherlock must also have been in the works.

But I think having two showrunners is not a bad idea- wouldn't be the first time-if it was me I would put Moffat in the general equivalent of showrunner- over all stories, themes of the series ect- but I'd elevate script editor back to the co-equal status it had in classic Who and get RTD on that, with them both writing together as necessary- helps they are good friends too and admire the qualities in each others work which the other lacks most, which helps in the bruised ego stakes, Moffat would not be offended by RTD adding character elements and dialogue because he admires how RTD writes characters so much, and RTD would not be offended when Moffat makes his twist ten times better with some imaginative time bending twist he would not have thought of, or some sharp witty retorts, because he admires those things about Moffat. As both are on record saying.}}

well if we get more episodes like Blink then a co-showrunner thingie would be great.

{{Blinks a good example of where you can clearly see the two styles working together- Sally and her brother, the cop and their characters are very RTD, the timey-whimey plot, making statues the monsters, that's very Moffat.

Stick the two together you get a scary idea, an intriguing plot to keep you hooked and characters you care about to keep you engaged and on the edge of your seat for them. Its a good representation of both their strengths coming to the fore.
Captain Jack is another good one- as a concept its got RTD written all over it- but in less skilled hands in his first appearance he could easily have come across as a bit of a slimey con-man and sexual predator. But a combination of the witty dialogue Moffat writes for him and Barrowman's delivery of that dialogue make him irresistibly likeable instead, and in spite of his extreme flirting and trying to con them. }}

{{Update on viewing figures now we have the consolidated numbers for episode 6 Demons of the Punjab.

For comparison here's Smith debut series 6th episode-

Vampires of Venice- 7.68 million

and Capaldi's 6th-

The Caretaker- 7.76

Now these were the only consolidated figures I could find and I assume therefore they are the 28 day, whereas Jodie's consolidated figure is the 7 day, but it does include, unlike the other two, those watching on pc and tablets, which is averaging about half a million this series.

Demons 7.23

assuming it picks up somewhere between 0.5-1 million over the next seven days it will will either be a bit ahead or around about the same as series 5 and series 8 where at the same point in their runs. Which either means the core audience is sticking with it so far, or those its lost due to the change have been replaced with new viewers. }}

"Demons of the Punjab" is a considerable step-up in terms of quality for the series. It's still a largely predictable, slow-moving, and frustrating affair. And the aliens are ahem... strangely familiar. But at least we care about some of the characters this time and actually feel enjoyable emotions when things happen to them.

I'm finding that I don't really care for this Doctor. Perhaps it's the accent, plus the rapid-speech and tone of voice, but the end result for me is that whenever the Doctor is speaking in a tense moment I find that I wish she would stop. She lacks Capaldi's gravitas, Tennant's charm, or Eccleston's sincerity, and comes across like Smith but not-adorable. It's really too bad. Also she continues to stick her arm way out far past her shoulder whenever she sonics.

The episode itself is good in its simplicity. It is like a stage-play, with characters making various comments about the sound of riots down "in the valley" or gathering around the radio in the main room of the house. It's a low budget episode for the most part, except for the alien special effects. Said effects were a poor choice on the director's part: the alien's screeching visions and tearing-metal "apparating" grate on one's nerves. They're also pretty dumb. They stand around and menace with their bat-like masks, but don't actually move. Maybe the masks jiggle around too much when they do.

I don't care to speak to the over-all message of the episode, except to say that it has a good one in its denouncement of violence and family disruption in the name of political movements.

The writing still sucks though. Clumsy dialogue where characters, as is the pattern now, tell instead of showing. Gimmicks like Yaz's grandmother pointing to a map of the world randomly in order to see where she should go, and landing on the exotic locale of "Sheffield". I'm actually beginning to resent Sheffield, truth be known. I'll certainly never visit, if I can help it. Anyway, the randomly putting of your finger on the globe is funny and appropriate in The Last King of Scotland, but here comes across as an unnecessary self-congratulatory bit of flim-flam on the part of the writer.

I could go on, but do not wish to. Overall, the episode is the best this series so far, with an enjoyable score (a bit on the nose? whatever, I don't care), some likable characters, and a plot that doesn't entirely suck.

And with Kerblam!, a return to mediocrity. Ah well.

{{That seems a fair summing up of Demons to me Forest- the best episode so far in terms of secondary characters having characters, proper motivations and things to do, and a plot which is consistent and coherent throughout.

But, and it's a big but, if the Doctor and co weren't in this story- nothing changes, not a damn thing. They are entirely surplus to narrative requirements- the Partition story, the two brothers story, the grans story and the aliens being there as witness- none of it has anything to do with the Doctor and all would have happened anyway, she had nothing to do with the plot of any worth- and that's one of the major issues with this series- there is a lot of activity to no purpose with 13, when your title character is not needed for the story you are telling then you've got a problem! }}

Oh yeah good point. The Doctor and Co. are observers only. The alien "threat" was no threat in this episode, and so their presence did not save or endanger anyone.

(Did you make a list of things that didn't make sense? I'll have to go back and check if you did. Included would be stuff like: the Doctor not being able to tell that the holy man was shot with a rifle, or why the Doctor's brain picked up those messages; or why the idiot husband thought that it was a good idea to go face his brother, that this was necessary or going to help in some way. The brother would be just as enthusiastic about chasing down his sister-in-law, unless seeing his brother killed stopped him somehow. I don't know. I liked the scene with the men on horseback pretty well, but it could have been done in a way that didn't feel so contrived, I feel. They could have gone for the old "they try to save him but he dies anyway" routine, which could have been pretty effective.