Re: All New Who

by azriel Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:29 pm

Spoiler:

by **Amarië** Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:30 pm

Wasn't a bad as it could have been. I don't like how it's feels too much like poor American shows. Saying the Doctor can't be a woman is bull though. That's not the problem of this season...

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:39 pm

{{{ You took that worse than I did Azriel! Not sure if this is good or bad news for you but I actually thought that was a slight step up on the first two!

As usual this is first impressions, and Ill get the bad out of the way first, of which I thought there was less this week.

Spoiler:

}}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:15 pm

{{Another thing which occurred to me was that there is of yet not an episode which is actually fun. RTD era could do serious but there was always an element of well, campy fun to his stuff, Moffat had a way of words and lines of dialogue that were born out of his sitcom writing years so often lent an element of fun through that in more serious episodes- three episodes in here and Ive yet to have a fun episode, where the characters have fun. Even with 12's grumpy series 8 debut we got Robots of Sherwood three episodes in, which had an emphasis on fun and exploiting the Doctors grumpiness for humour. There is a risk when you keep you characters for too long in situations which are difficult for them and not fun, that your audience stops having fun watching them }}

by halfwise Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:17 pm

3 episodes isn't too much: Star Trek would have maybe a 10/1 ratio, X-files about the same. Of course Dr Who is closer to camp to begin with.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:32 pm

3 episodes isn't too much- Halfy

{{That's the trick though, its 3 episodes into this series, but it's the 11th series of Nuwho and series 37 of Who overall! Got to be careful with Who and Time! Smile

}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:36 pm

{{ Think sadly this is going be a recurrent thing from me after every epiosde- Things that dont make sense in this episode!

Spoiler:

I get the feeling when I rewatch this one with my better half I will see even more glaring plot issues!}}

by Forest Shepherd Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:44 am

I mean, it's preachy. You know? I felt the same way about Vincent and the Doctor, the whole scene where they visit the future museum and Bill Nighy is going on and on about how Vincent is just the best thing since sliced bread and, you just have to sigh. It's so contrived. At least with Vincent we got to know the character pretty well, so we could feel his struggle with suicidal tendencies and depression. But Rosa Parks, what is there to say here? They can't give her a nuanced personality because she's this iconic figure and has to stay purely on the bland side of "good and brave". She has no flaws, she has no shortcomings, she's just the best.

Honestly, what kind of idiot could ever imagine that Rosa Parks not being arrested would result in no civil rights movement? IT OBVIOUSLY would still have happened. Just like the Europeans would still get to North America en masse without Columbus' help, and we'd all still have ipod-things without Steve Jobs. There's such a thing as critical mass, and a movement is not going to be stopped by a simple delay like this.

Every white minor character being intensely racist at all times was incredibly heavy-handed. Sure, it gets the point across, like a tea-pot thrown at your head, but it's just so gimmicky. The villain was so fucking dumb. "I killed thousands of people, and I'm racist, GRRR hate me audience, HAAATE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" (By the by, good point about guns being acceptable in this case, Petty. Sending the villain of the episode as far back in time as possible isn't even addressed by the Doctor as being a bad thing. Sure, the character is defined entirely by being loathsome, but he had served his time in prison and been "fixed" by that implant. Sending him back to, presumably, asphyxiate in space or burn in lava hardly seems justified. I guess it's okay to murder people if they're racist, because the Doctor sure doesn't seem to mind.)

Blech, I'm glad it's over. The only nice bits were when the episode was subtly making us feel how it would be to have your seat decided by your ethnicity. That was the only part that worked for me, some of those brief moments where the show didn't clobber us over the head with a baton and actually tried to get us to empathize with real, human characters.

But, of course, this episode will be lauded as ground-breaking and of great noble intent because of the general themes with which it dealt. Its over-the-top approach, mediocre characters, and spell-it-out-for-you writing? Apparently none of that matters as long as the show is generally highlighting an actual good cause.
Disappointing, but, it could have actually been worse.

by halfwise Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:42 pm

Did you stay up until nearly 3 am to watch it, Forest?

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:57 pm

halfwise wrote:It was banned, in 39 localities of Britain, in all of Norway, etc etc.

I mean banned as in people not liking it. it was banned by governments not people.

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:01 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Well not long till we find out Forest- the writer is Who's first black female writer- which I only mention because the BBC did, quite loudly- lucky she got the black people story then! (I dislike strongly this modern notion black people should write the black people stuff, only gay people should write gay people stuff, straight actors cant play trans characters ect- humans should be able through research, empathy, understanding and by putting themselves in other peoples shoes be able to write about or act other humans!! After all if I write a novel about Jack the Ripper I dont have to have murdered a bunch of prostitutes to do so! )
She also prior to this wrote children's books, which should be an interesting meeting of tones! }}

me too. Identity politics is turning us into intellectual cowards. Why cant people just be people, you cant define a person by their melanin content or sexuality, its bonkers. I blame the strident groups demanding a 'voice' which is not the same thing as demanding equality and stopping discrimination. I think Jonathan Pine did a good video on this subject.

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:08 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Another thing which occurred to me was that there is of yet not an episode which is actually fun. RTD era could do serious but there was always an element of well, campy fun to his stuff, Moffat had a way of words and lines of dialogue that were born out of his sitcom writing years so often lent an element of fun through that in more serious episodes- three episodes in here and Ive yet to have a fun episode, where the characters have fun. Even with 12's grumpy series 8 debut we got Robots of Sherwood three episodes in, which had an emphasis on fun and exploiting the Doctors grumpiness for humour. There is a risk when you keep you characters for too long in situations which are difficult for them and not fun, that your audience stops having fun watching them }}

I think RTD will be appreciated more as the Chibnal age trundles on. I think I might even dare I say it come to miss Moffat if this stuff continues. I haven't yet watched a single episode but I get what its like by reading your reactions.

by halfwise Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:40 pm

The trailers and teasers were enough to indicate there is no comparison. Not that I'm in any way Who devotee, but it's sad to see an iconic show so diminished.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:53 pm

it's sad to see an iconic show so diminished.- Halfwise

{{Those of us on here seem to be fairly minority voices Halfy to give things proper context- all three episodes have been exceptionally well received by the press, and the Rosa episodes the first of this series on the big Who forum Gallifrey Base to get a rating of 10 out of 10 from the community there.

On the basis of what's there so far I dont think its up to the writing or plotting standards of Who but so long as it appeals to enough people that sfine by me, same with RTD era, I'll just have to out-wait it and see if the next showrunner does something better with it. What's really important is Chibnal doesn't kill the show, so long as he can keep it popular (and so far he has by the figures that matter to the BBC- press love it and viewing figures are solid enough to keep it in the top ten) then the show survives- and that's what counts really. The idea stays alive.

One of the big issues besides moralising and clunky dialogue and thin plots full of obvious plot holes I have so far is the calibre of villain- so far we have had Predator knock-off, psychic bandages and space racist- none of whom have had any motivation longer than a few lines of explanation and exposition, none of which have tested or challenged the new Doctor in any meaningful way, and none of whom have any real personality outside of designated bad guy of the week.

If this keeps going I'm even going to miss the Slitheen! Stupid and childish as they were at least they did also provide this scene, in which RTD cleverly mixes Who's trademark eccentricity and humour (which this series almost entirely lacks so far) with the heavy subject matter of being a murderer and committing genocide! (Couldn't find the whole thing to had to grab two parts of it- but RTD does here something essential in Who, despite wildly switching in tone from comic to serious it still worked- with Chibnal the 'humour' element seems forced, like its there because he knows its supposed to be but he doesn't really know how to write it and he is not comfortable in those tone switches and so they seem noticeable or jarring when he does attempt them.}}

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:07 pm

{{Viewing figures for Rosa are in, on overnight it got 6.3 million, which is still good, up still about a 1-2 million roughly on the series 10 average overnights, but its down 2.5 million from 13's opening episode overnights and down a million or so on last weeks. Be interesting to see both where this series levels out at, and if the good word of mouth about Rosa will see a big increase once we get the consolidated 1 week figure and 28 days figures (so far this series hasn't quite time-shifted as much as the previous two for some reason). }}

by halfwise Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:01 pm

Slitheen: Now THAT was good writing. Supported by good acting.

by Forest Shepherd Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:21 pm

halfwise wrote:Did you stay up until nearly 3 am to watch it, Forest?

Yup, not the best decision, overall.

As for PlanetWho or whatever it's called, that site is bonkers. 10/10 my foot.

by Mrs Figg Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:35 pm

halfwise wrote:Slitheen: Now THAT was good writing. Supported by good acting.

yep that was brilliant.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:49 pm

{{Lets not get too carried away with the brilliance of the Slitheen- I picked that scene very carefully, it was from their second appearance where the childish elements were severely dialled back- RTD also wrote all these ones too! }}

But I do miss some of the former dialogue scenes with weight- here's 12 in conversation with Davros, creator of the Dakeks, who has called the Doctor to face him for one last time, as he claims to be dying. This scene begins right after the Doctor has essentially bragged to Davros that the Time Lords didn't lose the Time War, he the Doctor, saved them. And this occurs immediately after series where the Doctor is questioning his own life and if its really been for the greater good or not and if he himself is in fact a good man or not.}}

Mind you Davros tends to get good dialogue, rather dreading Chibnal ever trying to write him!
This one is from 10's time, and is the Doctor at the beginning of questioning himself, his life, his actions, prodded and prompted and teased on by Davros}}}

- note how the scenes bookend the Doctors good man arc, despite being something like 5 series apart from one another and two different showrunners- in the first its the near the start of the Doctor questioning himself (he comes to the wrong answer in Waters of Mars!) and in the 12 scene the Doctor knows again who he is, what he stands for, and knows the whole time that Davros is trying to pull a fast one on him to nick his regeneration energy. In RTD a doubtful Doctor can be fooled by Davros into questioning himself, by the 12 scene the Doctor knows Davros is not, and never has been a good man, but he is a compassionate one, which is why he is about to stop Davros in his tracks again and not be fooled by him, he fools Davros instead (Davros believing compassion to be the Doctors biggest weakness- its not, its sweets and biscuits! Smile

) the 12 episodes themes are all about compassion, kindness and mercy- the Doctor is the Doctor not be brave, or a hero, but simply because he can't walk away from those need because of those traits- that's why the Doctor always wins. Yes a lot of folk die in his name as Davros makes Ten realise, but they chose to fight for those very traits, by 12 he understands this.

And its nowhere better exemplified than at the very endof 12's run in the Doctors own words- marking the end of a character development that RTD began- and I have to admit, depsite me not taking to Jodies more bouncy friendly version as much as the previous it makes narrative sense for the Doctors development- 12 bowed out on a note of kindness, in this speech and his final one before regenerating, and forgiveness and compassion, and was totally at ease with being the Doctor and reaffirming as it were the promise of what that means to himself to live up to. 13 was born of that mood, shorn of the pasts guilt and self relflection and on a promise of being kind. All of which she does rather embody so far.}}

by Forest Shepherd Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:55 pm

Yeah but the twistiness of 12's Davros episode was really hard to sit through. Some good dialogue, sure, but the plot was gimmicky.

by Mrs Figg Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:48 pm

{{Lets not get too carried away with the brilliance of the Slitheen- I picked that scene very carefully, it was from their second appearance where the childish elements were severely dialled back- RTD also wrote all these ones too! }} Petty

Its a kids tv show, being childish is allowed, kids love fart jokes. The Doctor is also very childlike. I really dislike all the heavy 'adult' pondering stuff that 12 tackled. It all got a bit poe-faced, dour, and a bit too self indulgent towards the end.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:19 pm

but the plot was gimmicky.- Forest

{{Its not the best- though at least there is one and it all fits together. But I really enjoyed the Clara/Missy double act, there's a lot of humour in it juxtaposed against the more serious scenes between the Doctor and Davros-

and I like Missy's complete betrayal of them at the end in order to make a point. And I felt the theme of mercy is very cleverly worked into through the plot- and a great opening scene to start a series with- the hand- mines are creepy as hell and then the Davros reveal.

And just the handmines alone, a throwaway idea for the episodes start based on the idea from Genesis of the Daleks that Davros has been experimenting with genetics and mutations to create weird living weapons (killer clams!!) and they are more imaginative and effective than any of the current series bad things so far- Ill take these over killer bandages any day!

Its a kids tv show, being childish is allowed, kids love fart jokes- RTD

No its a family show, always was meant to be- to bridge the gap between the football results finishing and pop show jukebox jury, the aim was to keep hold of both audiences (also why it falls under the BBC drama dept and budget fortunately, rather than the Childrens Dept and the smaller budgets)- as such it does have a tricky balancing act in appealing to the various age groups- the first Slitheen one went to far to childish, just as the Absobaloff episode did. But I think RTD realised that himself as after series 1 he toned back elements like farting Slitheen or burping dustbins and instead begin building the poe-faced stuff in leading to the Time Lord Victorious and other weightier material.

I have never understood those who view 12's years as lacking in humour- I find them full of humour.

}}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:06 pm

{{Consolidated +7 viewing figures are in for Jodies second episode, the Ghost Monument-

'8.67 million watched the episode on a conventional TV set. However the BARB 4-Screen Dashboard shows that an additional 184,000 watched on their PC, 83,000 watched on a Tablet device and 64,000 watched on a smartphone These figures make Doctor Who the 4th most watched programme of the week ending 14th October'

Handily that gives the base numbers without the additional pc, tablets ect which weren't counted previously so we can get a fairer comparison with previous Doctor debut series.

Given 13's run is being touted as a massive return in viewing figures, especially over the Capaldi era, seems fair to compare it with 12's second episode, Into the Dalek- which consolidated at 8.26 million.

So the difference in the end is actually only 0.4 million viewers. Which is well within the margin of fluctuation you get between episodes in any series. Up yes, but hardly the huge boost over Capaldi era the press have been pushing it as, and so much for their narrative of it being evidence 12 was unpopular with fans! }}}

by Forest Shepherd Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:01 pm

I was certainly more excited about the Capaldi episodes than this season. The Robin Hood episode was a few magnitudes more enjoyable than anything this season.

by malickfan Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:29 pm

ah yes, robot of sherwood, one of the more underrated Capaldi episodes i.m.o, simple but good campy fun, also this:

(I haven't watched any of the new episodes yet)