All New Who

Completely recreated and rewrote him. Exactly. Annoying as it may be, RTD was playing by the rules.

Moffat's Master is nothing like RTD's Master, he is supposed to be the same but just looks like him. And that's what you are describing with your Aragorn story. The same character, but unrecognizable.

{{In the story the Master has been cured since we last saw him of the invented drum beat nonsense that was supposedly driving him insane- so he is no longer a giggling lunatic- though he is still crazier than Missy. Therefore he acts much more like proper Master again. Thank god as the giggling lunatic version would have completely destroyed the tone of those two episodes and not fitted or worked at all.
RTD is the inconsistency in character- before him and after him we have consistency of character in the Master- its just during RTD we dont.

And we know it was Moffats intention from the start to write Missy as a continuation of classic Master as he has said publicly the first thing he did was to go back to the 3rd Doctor/Master stories and get to what they were all about and build on that- which is exactly what we got. RTD on the other-hand abandoned almost entirely the original Master and reinvented him completely  as some sort of comic-book insane super-villain. What Moffat did was basically salvage and repair work to restore the integrity of the character.}}}

Simms didn't play a giggling lunatic.

{{Not my words Figg thats according to Simms- and according to Simms a giggling lunatic is what RTD wanted- 'he wanted a giggling lunatic'- I dont know how you can keep insisting RTD Master is not a giggling lunatic when that is how the actor who played him describes the part, accurately as it happens, and how he describes how he was asked to play the part.}}

but he doesn't giggle. he is just batshit scary crazy.

{{{Exactly- bat-shit crazy- a face pulling, consistently insane super villain- that's not the Master who is a sophisticated, super intelligent, highly cultured Gallifreyean with a penchant for manipulation, hypnosis and disguises.
RTD Master could never have got in the position to be an MP standing for PM as he could not act sane enough for long enough to pull it off and gain everyone's trust- as those clips demonstrate- he just acts obviously insane all the time. }}}

Petty, I have two words for you.

Donald Trump.

{{We're Britain not America- you cant be PM unless you are first party leader- which means first becoming an MP, then getting through the party ranks, usually holding other high office- like Foreign Sec or Home Office, before you get near party leadership before you can even stand for PM. You cant do a Trump and just walk in on a wave of populism. }}

You were supposed to chuckle.

{Wrong thread for that!
Does highlight the massive gap though between classic and RTD- RTD actually gives us a classic Master set up- one that takes disguise, long periods of manipulation and cunning ect- we know this because Saxon gets name dropped for a whole series and several years in universe implying he did do the whole MP, rising star of government bit. Its a classic Master scheme- yet the actual Master whenever we see him is someone who would be completely incapable of pulling off such a scheme due him being such an obvious lunatic all the time incapable of hiding it for even one scene.
There is a massive gap between the plot we re supposed to believe he pulled off and the character himself who couldn't actually do it. }}}

Well, it's not too different from the Master's mystery off screen healing, is it? Or any other off-screen events. We are told about it and just have to imagine how it was done. I imagine he saved up all his crazy till he was in power.

it's not too different from the Master's mystery off screen healing, is it? - Amarie

{{Its quite different- the off screen healing involves imagining the Time Lords, who created the problem and are the most intelligent technologically advanced race in existence, cured him off it. Compared to having to imagine a completely bat-shit crazy insane guy successfully pulling off a long term plan to fool an entire nation and its institutions that requires subtly, years of planning and cunning and a gift for words. None of which he displays. }}}

I imagine he saved up all his crazy till he was in power. -Amarie

{{As presented by RTD he doesn't have a choice about being crazy- he has been driven crazy by the drumbeat thing in his head and so appears to have no control over his insanity, its just there, all the time. Drumming in his head.}}

{{Love this scene from the River xmas episode- the moment where she twigs the Doctor has been right next to her all along- what I love most about it is how they instantly fall into familiarity. }}

{{ Don't mess with 12! (And Bill's right- he does run like a penguin with its arse on fire! }}

I think you like canon when it suits you and you like when Moffat changes canon just for the sake of it. you don't like RTDs version of the Master so you make up excuses that the Master cant be 'insane' even though its perfect for the storyline, and you say you prefer classic Master even though Moffat turns the master into a screaming, gurning, lunatic who is now unaccountably female with a line in sexual innuendo. Missy is insane, she is mad, the very thing you hate in Simms performance, this is hypocracy. end of argument.

{{Sorry Figg thats not how a debate works- you dont get to just declare yourself the winner and close all debate down! Especially not on such spurious evidence.

I'll ignore the you just hate RTD comment as being beneath the trouble of responding too, and for the record I dont believe Moffat has ever changed canon despite the ill-informed cries from some quarters that he has.

You have yet to provide any evidence that Missy is portrayed as you describe her and I contest she is not, or ever has been. You will have to quote all this sexual innuendo she embarks on too, as I seem to have missed it completely, or it doesn't exist.
And yes she is mad, all versions of the Master are mad in the sense they want to rule the universe by force and be the ultimate Master of everything- which is pretty mad- but she does not act permanently insane. No hypocrisy and it seems no end to this debate! }}

{{Nice trailer for all 10 series of NUWHo)

{{And dont say I dont ever give you anything Figg (besides a headache I mean ) Can't say if its a good vid or not as I couldnt watch it over the noise of grinding teeth. But thought you would like it. }}

popping in form southern california and i find the who formum alive and well
one question to stoke the fire

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{and for the record I dont believe Moffat has ever changed canon despite the ill-informed cries from some quarters that he has. }}

what does this mean? exactly who determines what is or isnt cannon? bbc? the current director? fans? and who lurks in these ill informed quarters you speak of and what disqualifies their opinion of cannon? it all sounds a bit authoritarian to me

cheers

{{{ The BBC dictate what is officially canon, sort of- the closest they have said is that unless it is in the tv show or officially part of BBC licensing its not strictly canon. More or less. As a general rule the only 'safe' stuff to consider canon is if its actually been referenced in the show itself, in an episode. This is why when Moffat had 8 make his a reappearance after all this time and he listed the names of his BF audio companions fans of BF were so happy- as it was in the tv show it made those characters a definite part of Who canon.



The showrunner can of course alter whatever they like- Moffat has not done this though he has changed the perspective on some things- such as the last moments of the Time War- the change does not undo anything which has come before however.
And certainly showrunners can and do add to the mythos all the time- RTD for example made a massive addition by adding in the Time War itself off screen between the show last appearance and its return and removing the Time Lords. The writers of the 1st Doctor made up arguably the reason the show still exists- regeneration as a way to get round a casting change, the writers of the second Doctor invented Time Lords and gave the Doctor a race and the writers of the 3rd Doctor added his home planet and its name as well inventing the Master, the writers of the 4th Doctor invented a previously unknown creator of the Daleks, Davros and so on through all the Doctors.


edit add- the ill-informed I refer to are those who insists Moffat has changed canon by presenting a new perspective on how the Time War really ended, or for Clara going back to his childhood and giving him the moral story about fear being a superpower- neither of which holds any water. But it is something Moffat detractors tend to accuse him off, as well as 'making new stuff up' about the Doctor or his past! (As if making stuff up is not in fact the very definition of fiction writing!)}}}

The showrunner can of course alter whatever they like- Moffat has not done this though he has changed the perspective on some things- such as the last moments of the Time War- the change does not undo anything which has come before however.

i think i understand your point. youre saying that moffat has been exceptionally respectful of all the cannonish things that have come before him. but at the same time it seems to me every time any showrunner adds anything at all they are changing cannon. that's sort of their job. and once they have been given the job everything they add automatically becomes connonish. right?

{{Pretty much yeah. Its essentially the showrunners job to add to the mythos.
A good example is the 7th Doctor story Remembrance of the Daleks- in it we learn that when the Doctor ran from Gallifrey he took with him a very powerful artifact- the Hand of Omega- and the reason he was on earth and at the location we first saw him as the 1st Doctor in the first episode, was because he was out hiding the Hand- in fact its implied that was exactly what he was doing prior to returning to the TARDIS and making his first on screen appearance.
It adds more to the mythos of the circumstances of his leaving- but there were 6 prior Doctors where it was never mentioned because the 7th era showrunners made it up.
Similarly the Hybrid storyline Moffat wrote tells us more about the circumstances and an event that happened in the Doctors childhood- it changes nothing, just as adding he stole the Hand of Omega didn't change anything- but it adds to the mythos without ever fully giving it away- why did he steal the Hand exactly, was it the reaosn he was running? We never actually find out- just as with the Hybrid it's never certain how much is true, or the exact circumstances surrounding the bits of events we do see.
The trick you see is to add to the mythos without destroying the Who? element crucial to the Doctor's mystery after over 50 years and to make it fit into the existing stuff we already know from over the years of the show.

In the case of the Master its more an issue of does it fit previous canon? Is that the character we know already?
With RTD Master RTD knew he wanted a completely different sort of Master, its why he created the McGuffin of him having this drum beat in his head as a means to explain why this version of the Master did not behave like any other version.

So he was well within in his rights to retro create the drum beat, even if many wish he hadn't as for some reaosn RTD pushed it as an explanation or why the Master has ALWAYS been bad- which just doesn't work when you go back and watch those original Master stories and he is clearly not suffering from such a thing at all and behaves completely differently.
Thats the main issue - he retro's in something, just like the Hand, just like the Hybrid, only what he changes is something so fundamental to the character that is should change everything about him we know- its the very thing apparently which makes the Master like he is and always was, we are told it is why he acts like he is acting. Rather than not changing anything fundamental about what we've seen before this does- or should- only of course it can't so if you watch the old Master episodes there is not even a hint of it in the Masters behaviour, deeds or words. He is effectively a different person, and he shouldn't be if he has always had this drum beat driving him insane and affecting his behaviour as RTD tells us.
Moffat is way more careful than that- when he uses anything that touches on past events or characters it is done so it adds to whats already there or you look at it in a new way with anew perspective- what it never does is overwrite what is already there on screen.
To be honest RTD changed the character so much I dont know why he didn't create a new Time Lord, or reuse one of the other rogue Time Lords we have seem- the Rani, or even the Time Meddler would have served the same narrative purpose. But presumably RTD wanted the fan wow factor of bringing back an iconic character so used the Master. But then had to come up with an excuse for why he acted so completely different to make him fit the super-villain plot.
Its a very clumsy and messy stomping on whats come before.  }}}

{{This is very much worth a watch, not only because its on subject, but also because its just really, really good.
Also includes a few of the better quieter moments from RTD Master I mentioned- hoping you've got temporary good connection Dave whilst your visiting civilisation, though e warned totally spoiler filled for series 9 and 10- ps dont worry about the farm, its getting well fertilized in your absence   . Oh and fair play on the new scarecrows- putting them in kilts did indeed put the willies up me!   }}



{{Also good example here of showrunners and mythos adding- RTD has his Doctor say the stuff about them going to see the stars together- Moffat later makes that the original plan, a friendship pact, the Doctor and the Master were going to do setting out as young Time Lords- doesn't change 10's comment, but when you watch it again knowing more it adds even more poignancy to it, as you know as young adventurous Time Lords, before it all went wrong between them that's what they were going to do together. Its a good example of the way Moffat doesn't overwrite anything but he adds another angle on it. }}