All New Who

{{Not saying its not your opinion- that you prefer RTD era Master over anything Moffat would write does not surprise me in the slightest- its him being the scariest performance in Who's 50 year history of monsters and villains I find more difficult to grasp. A lightning-force shooting, mario-bros bouncing, maniacally laughing Skeletor on cocaine with an eating disorder. That struck me as many things at the time, scariest villain ever on Who was not however one of them!}}}

nope. Simms was genius.   he scareded me more than the Angels, and they were pretty scary. its got nothing whatsoever to do with Moffat/RTD. Why make it about them? I am discussing his performance. But if you insist on making it about Moffat/RTD, RTD used Simms talents, Moffat squandered them with banal dialogue, Simms looked embarrassed to say his lines most of the time in his latest version.

{{Its the performance bit I dont get- he is so over-the-top, so pantomime. I just dont get how that can be scary. Its too cartoony to scare. }}}

is the Joker over the top?

{{For the Joker no. For the Master yes. But it is a good comparison to draw for why RTD era Master sucks.
The JOker is a psychotic lunatic who fixated on seeing the funny side to life as applied to tragedy, death, destruction and ruin and has a fixed permanent grin and laughs like a maniac as a trademark.
The Master is supposed to be a rogue super-intelligent Time Lord from one of the most sophisticated and learned cultures in the universe.
He is not insane in classic series, he is mad, there is a difference. Mad people can still act sane, present themselves as sane and pass for sane by seeming more or less normal when you meet them- like the Master.
Insane people like the Joker can't hide their insanity. They act insane all the time. He literally wears his insanity on his face and represents it through maniacal laughter.
The Master however is not the Joker. He does not wear his madness openly for all to see. Therefore he should not be played like he is the Joker. }}

you explained exactly how Simms plays the Master, just like the Joker.

this could run for some time, so lets just cut it short and say Simms was amazing.

Missy's getting her own short story collection:

http://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/doctor-who-the-missy-chronicles-hardcover/

This is an unusual idea for a re-release:

http://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/the-doctor-who-audio-annual-multi-doctor-stories-audio-cd/

you explained exactly how Simms plays the Master, just like the Joker.- Figg

{{Yes but I also explained why that is not a good thing! }}

lets just cut it short and say Simms was amazing- Figg

{{I would agree he is good actor- in that he did exactly what was asked of him each time- its just a shame in my view RTD asked for a giggling lunatic but there you go. Can't blame Simm for that he did as he was being asked and paid to do.


Malick- not sure hiow much market there is for audio base don the old annuals- maybe old nostalgia fools like me that used to get the Doctor Who annual as a kid.


This is nice, Jodie Whittaker sees her first cosplayers of the 13th Doctor-}}

RTD didn't ask for a giggling idiot, he asked for a scary madman, and he got it.

{{ Not according to Simm as Malick highlighted several posts ago- "he (RTD) wanted a giggling lunatic." }}

he wanted the Joker, and he got the Joker. The Joker is a giggling madman. You just don't like the RTD version. If it had been Moffat you would have praised it to the skies.

{{Well you are right that I dont like the RTD version- because its so far removed from the Master as he was in classic. Not that I dislike all of it- Simm is a good actor as I've said- the stuff about Gallifrey when he is quiet and talking normally- that all works great, same with his 'death' scene. Its everything else is just so off for the character.

Take this classic Master scene with the 3rd Doctor for example- can you honestly say that RTD Master seems like the natural progression of that character?



That Master in RTD is just completely at odds with that, whereas the Master and Missy as we get them in the series 10 finale fits that character to a tee.

12- "We had a pact, me and him, every star in the universe, we were going to see them all. But he was too busy burning them. I don't think she ever saw anything."

The scene in the series 8 finale is almost a direct follow up to the issues touched on in the classic scene above, its a progression of those themes-



That's the continuation of the Doctor/Master dynamic of classic, not the lunatic Joker version. Classic Master was prone to the occasionally maniacal laugh, usually when it was going his way or he thought he had won or he was showing off. But he didn't do it all the time or act crazy all the time. If he had he would never have been able to pull off his schemes, all the times in disguise, all the bluffing, and manipulating of people he did.
Even in the RTD story- how did the Master ever get in a position to be PM? How did he fake it for long enough when we never see him on screen for any length of time without acting like an obvious lunatic? It doesn't make sense.

Heres another classic scene where the Master is working with the Nesteene Consciousness (living plastic) on a scheme to take over the world where he has had to pose as a business man and investor in order to take over the running of a plastics factory. He is clearly still mad as a hatter, but he doesn't go about looking and sounding like it- its what he does that is mad, not that he looks like a madman.

 

Its not about Moffat being the writer, its about Moffat respecting the original character far more and continuing on the underlying themes that were the basis of the Doctor/Master relationship from the beginning. Its about integrity to the character.}}}

{{Noticed there are some excellent Doctor/Master/Missy fan vids out there- heres two good ones-spoiler filled }}

Simms did the only performance which did justice to the Master. Missy was a giggling gurning idiot.

{{She neither giggles nor gurns. Gomez does have an expressive face that's true but its hardly gurning and Missy is way calmer, more rational on the surface and more matured as a character than Simm's version. Nor does she shoot lightning bolts from her fingertips or leap over tall buildings with one bound.
Nor have you shown how the Sim Master is in any way a continuation of the Master as we had seem him in classic or consistent with that character. }}}

It's one thing to honour the "old" Master(s), but I was a bit disappointed when I didn't really recognize the Master, only his face.

Not a bad episode though. Kudos to Moff for

Spoiler:

...and an eye roll for

Spoiler:

Gomez giggles, gurns and is far more over the top than Simms ever was.

{{Just repeating the same thing over and over Figg doesn't make it true- evidence! Lets see a vid of where Gomez is more over-the-top than shooty lightning, skeletor 'eat,eat!' Master- you can't of course because such a scene just doesn't exist.

Amarie- 'I was a bit disappointed when I didn't really recognize the Master'

That's how I felt throughout the entirety of RTD era Master- who the hell is this supposed to be? They are nothing like the Master. It was great to finally see Simm get to play the role as it was and as the actor always wanted to play it.
RTD created and retconned in the whole drum beat thing as his excuse for why his Master was so different from every other incarnation we had seen in classic. Moffat simply undid that by having the Time Lords cure him of it after he went back to Gallifrey- therefore the Simm Master we see with Missy, and Missy herself, do not suffer from the drum beat and so are not consistently being driven insane by it. This is what allowed Moffat to return the character to the the original superior character template.

Regards Heather- as I mentioned in my review it works fine but I just wish Heather had come back up during the series in some fashion- I dont think Bill even mentions her again after the opening episode. We focused much more on Bill's mother and her missing her than we did on her feelings for Heather and I feel the ending for Bill would have felt less out the blue if they had. But then I can also see why Moffat would think that brutally and nastily killing the first ever openly lesbian companion would only lead to trouble and hysterical accusations of the sort which he is probably quite rightly sick of by now. I know I would be in his position. He is in a lose/lose scenario- kill her off get accused of hating all gays, blacks and woman all at once, let her live and be accused of being soft and never killing main characters (this isn't actually true- Amy, Rory, Clara are all dead as is River- that's a higher companion fatally list than RTD era where Rose, Martha and Donna all survive and go on with their lives in one fashion or other after the Doctor).}}}

The evidence is clear when I watch the episodes. I found Gomez hammy at best and a giggling idiot at worst. The only time she actually acted was in her last episode, which showed me how much her talent had been wasted before.

Whole board is silent except for this thread, so even though I don't give a rat's patootie about any of this and know even less than said rat, I must weigh in and you must suffer it.

From what little I've seen of Sim's RTD master (based on nothing more than a 3 minute tribute vid), there's a giggling man who eats very fast. I am neither frightened or impressed, and haven't the slightest clue why he would be denoted "the Master", which denotes competence. I don't see he'd be competent of anything.

Gomez's Missy/Master is quite interesting, and at least demonstrates verbal competence. But I'm no more frightened by her than I am by a sharp-tongued sassy school girl.

So what it is you two are going on about for page after page I simply can not fathom. Maybe "the Master" of the classic era was tinged with dread, but these recent incarnations are school-yard kids running around in capes and masks. Yep, that's worth a quarrel.

{{{For me its not about him being scary- he scared me as a kid, but neither modern nor classic Master would scare an adult. The Master has always been a bit over the top and a bit eccentric and occasionally flamboyant but not openly insane.  But that was never what was most interesting- what was interesting was the relationship between the Master and the Doctor.
Its the only good stuff in RTD era Master- the phone-call about Gallifrey between them ect, the few quiet scenes where it delves into that friendship- sadly the rest is shooty lightening cackling laughter Master.
Moffat era took it solely back to the relationship- everything in Moffat era Master involving Missy is about their friendship and differences- its the motivation behind everything both her and the Doctor do in regards to each other.

This final scene between the three of them, Master, Missy and Doctor gives you the full sense of what Moffat era is about regards their relationship- huge spoilers of course- its also a beautifully written and performed scene too}}




{{heres another scene from series 9 in which Missy talks about her friendship whilst demonstrating what it about the Master that makes him/her so dangerous- going from friendly and engaging to homicidal at the flick of a switch, very like the original Master played by Delgado would



this sort of Master is way more intimidating and disturbing to me than the one who just cackles like a demented lunatic all the time. She is totally unpredictable in how she will choose to react and you can never be certain of her or let your guard down around her. This is the side of the Master that used to destroy whole cities just to see the pretty shapes the smoke made- that's far more frightening motivation to kill millions casually than just a crazy megalomaniac.

Plus you overlook one very important matter Hafly- we haven't had a Who barny in ages, they are hard to resist (maybe when Chibnal comes along we all either love it or all hate it and be agreement- wouldn't hold your breath for that though ) }}}

halfwise wrote:Whole board is silent except for this thread, so even though I don't give a rat's patootie about any of this and know even less than said rat, I must weigh in and you must suffer it.

From what little I've seen of Sim's RTD master (based on nothing more than a 3 minute tribute vid), there's a giggling man who eats very fast.  I am neither frightened or impressed, and haven't the slightest clue why he would be denoted "the Master", which denotes competence.  I don't see he'd be competent of anything.

Gomez's Missy/Master is quite interesting, and at least demonstrates verbal competence.  But I'm no more frightened by her than I am by a sharp-tongued sassy school girl.

So what it is you two are going on about for page after page I simply can not fathom.  Maybe "the Master" of the classic era was tinged with dread, but these recent incarnations are school-yard kids running around in capes and masks.  Yep, that's worth a quarrel.

 Its 40 degrees and I am bored. I don't give a rat's patoodie either to be honest.
Still think Simms nailed it however. I found him chillingly scary and Missy quite boring.

{{This might help you relate to my issue Halfy. Think of it this way- imagine that after book 3 of LotR's and after we have gone off with Frodo and Sam we return to Aragorn to find he acts completely differently and is now crazy but its ok as the writers excuse is he has always had a bit of shrapnel in his brain that had never been mentioned before but now, off-page, its completely altered his behaviour and physical appearance turning him not only into a giggling lunatic but into some sort of human/wraith hybrid too that can shoot magic from his fingertips.
That's basically what RTD did to the character of the Master. }}}

That is a very accurate comparison I suppose, except that it is Moffat who takes a established character and changes it. Both Madman Master and Missy are new characters, two regenerated Masters. This is how you go your own way in the Who verse, whether we like the new versions or not. I get that you are disappointed that RTD's Master is not your Master, but Moffat is doing the same thing and you are praising him.

{{{ I disagree, Moffat took the character back to what it was- yes he put a fresh spin on it, yes Gomez gives it her own twist in her performance- but the character is completely true to its original incarnation and intention in a way it is not with RTD era Master who really is almost completely cut off from classic era Master in personality and behaviour. Missy is not. She is very reminiscent of the original Delgado Master- she is cunning, good with words, can be one moment friendly, funny, suave and the next utterly betray you and sell you out.
All the vids and evidence I have presented is to back up the claim that Moffat era Master is a proper continuation, not just of the original character, but of the original Doctor/Master character arc.
I am praising Moffat for advancing the character in a manner which is utterly true to its origins.
RTD did not advance the character- he completely recreated and rewrote him. }}} }}