US General Election 2016

We do not have the moral highground- Figg

{{I wasn't claiming a moral high ground, just describing the collapse of Americas in the eyes of the world.

He thought being nasty to immigrants was good for drumming up support among his base. He was right about that, his base still supported him. - Halfy

Sadly this seems to be the case. But the outcome shows that there are still enough people left on both sides for whom there actually is a line to be crossed and that's heartening- it was starting to look, on the Republican side particularly, that this wasn't the case and they would turn their noses up but keep silent no matter what. }}

A change of topic. I think Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails put my feelings perfectly into works.

"what Donald Trump is doing is concerning and infuriating — and it’s not the conservative agenda, it’s not a question of religious preference, it’s not a question of should government be big or small. I don’t have any problem with those topics. But the disregard for decency and truth and civility is what’s really disheartening. It feels like a country that celebrates stupidity is really taking it up a notch."

{{Wondering if Melanie is the real reason Trump changed policy- she turned up at the border today on an unannounced visit to a detention centre holding minors.
Thing is according to her advisors she made the decision herself and told the President she was coming to the border- two days ago.
Or in other-words before Trump changed his mind, if  he had not, then his own wife was about to show him up today.
I am wondering if that more than anything else changed Trump's mind- he wasn't going to let his wife show him up in public. }}}

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/06/donald-trump-family-separation-executive-order-obama-policy/

“There is no perspective. There is no sense of proportion. There is no historical memory.”

You all make me sick.

{{As I understand it the difference is not that it was done under Obama- thats well known and public knowledge- but the courts decreed a maximum of twenty days that the family could be kept because yo couldn't keep children in detention for longer than that without it risking being classed abuse. What Trump is asking for is for that period to be extended indefinitely.
I believe the Cruz plan called for a large increase in judges to speed up prosecuting cases and an extension of the twenty day law to forty- which seemed a reasonable compromise to me. }}

Note first of all that the referenced article refers to whole family detentions, not separation of children from their families. I understand that under the Obama administration such separation occurred when there were criminal charges above illegal immigration (a civil offence under Obama) but not otherwise.

Yes, people are being hypocritical to attack Trump for family detention, but not for attacking him for child separation from parents. This came as a result of reclassifying immigration as a criminal offence, but the technical side effect of family separation was then claimed as deterrence.

I feel that there is no real alternative to family detention if you are trying to control the borders, so have no argument with that. My arguments are with the family separation as a matter of course (now reversed) and the recurring claim that immigrants bring crime (demonstrated untrue). A strong argument can be made that immigrants are a burden on the social safety nets we have set up, and a weaker argument can be made that they are taking jobs (they mainly take jobs Americans don't want). So yes, control the borders, but don't lie about why it needs to be done.

{{Regards the fuss around Melanie's jacket.

Facts first, what there are-

She obviously didn't wear it by accident. She has wardrobes full of designer clothes but she choose to wear a $30 dollar jacket with a message on it. This cannot have happened by accident.

Her official spokesperson says- "there was no hidden message"

The President says there was - "“I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” written on the back of Melania’s jacket, refers to the Fake News Media."

She wore it on the same day as a high profile visit to a kids detention centre at the height of a very emotive moment.

SO that's the facts of it.
So we dont know if it was a 'hidden message' or not- she says no, he says yes.

If it wasn't then it was at best utterly tone-deaf. Shockingly so. I've seen it compared to Marie Antoinette's 'let them eat cake' but  its not quite that tone deaf but its heading in that direction. The main question that arises here beyond that of her judgement, is why was there no one in her staff who said 'maybe that's a not a good idea today'?

If it was a message to the 'fake news' media then it was again a terrible choice of occasion and day to wear it. Almost any other public appearance would have been fine- just not on the same day she visits separated children. As a PR move its disastrous, it would obviously steal all the news oxygen from reporting on what the visit was about, what she said or did. Its not like such a thing was not foreseeable.

So whilst I dont know why she choose to wear that jacket on that day I dont see what good was meant to come of it or what good it has done save to distract from the things she wanted to say and be heard saying.

Its a small thing, but its a very odd, tone-deaf thing.}}}

{{Found the most honest thing on Fox News- for some reason an article I am on is not displaying the images, instead there is a place-holder descriptive sentence of the images that should be there.

Here's one of the missing picture description indicting what picture is supposed to be there-

'Donald Trump Gathers Alien-Violence Victims To Trash Media's Snatched Baby Border Policy Coverage'

I find the wording fascinating- its honest- the purpose of Trump gathering victims of immigrant crime was solely to trash the narrative about what he had caused at the border. Also that whoever at Fox wrote this descriptive piece used the words 'snatched' to describe what happened to the children and Trumps strategy as a means to 'trash' the media news.

Lot of honesty in one mistaken sentence you are never meant to see! }}}

The worst thing about Melania's coat was its ambiguity. It could be a terrible insult or it could be solidarity, but for whom nobody knows. that's the problem. If she just wore it because its a nice coat, she really needs to change her staff. I mean people got huffy about Kate Middleton wearing a black belt, or somebody else wearing a particular tiny broach, oh yeah it was Camilla, so everything they wear is scrutinized by the inch.

good one

{{I am beginning to wonder if Trump even knows there is a difference between refugees and asylum seekers? As he seems to continuously conflate the two.
And I see his latest approach is just to chuck folk right back out, no process, no judges, no hearings nothing.And here I thought Trump supporters were calling for America to be a land of laws-  presumably that's only for whites of European descent! }}}

{{Trump only picks the best people- he told us so himself- so what about this guy? David Bossie, currently a Fox news contributor, formerly deputy campaign manager to the Trump team and also deputy of Trumps transition team, and who during a debate on Fox on immigration/racism told his black opponent he was 'out his cotton-picking mind'.
Trump must be like the human equivalent to a racist black hole- he pulls other racists towards himself.

Fox released this statement- "David Bossie's comments today were deeply offensive and wholly inappropriate. His remarks do not reflect the sentiments of Fox News and we do not in any way condone them."
Which is odd because whilst Fox doesn't come right out and say it normally as Bossie did, their coverage and slant certainly does reflect this attitude and sentiments and they condone it all the time. Plus as of writing this the guy still has a job and hasn't so much as been suspended.

However my favourite thing about all this is that the debate in question in which this Trump supporting racist made these remarks the onscreen caption read- "PUNDITS CALL TRUMP SUPPORTERS RACIST, NAZIS." That just need a minor adjustment to have accurately portrayed what was being said on screen- "Trump Supporter is Racist, Nazi. Live on Fox!" would have covered it!}}}

{{well there goes the first US jobs thanks to Trump's tariffs-

"To address the substantial cost of this tariff burden long-term, Harley-Davidson will be implementing a plan to shift production of motorcycles for EU destinations from the US to its international facilities to avoid the tariff burden," the company said in an official filing to the US market regulator.- BBC  }}}

I sort of have to defend Bossie on the cotton-picking mind. I grew up in the South, and that was a very typical phrase: "are you out of your cotton-picking MIND?" I have to confess even though it looks obvious in retrospect, nobody associated that phrase with slavery. Up until I read about this incident I would have blithely used it myself.

{{Just to highlight how a bit of editing changes something. Fox is quoting a Guardian interview with David Lynch- its under the headline-

'Filmmaker David Lynch believes Trump could be one of greatest presidents in history'

It goes on to include the following quotes from the interview-

“He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history because he has disrupted the thing so much. No one is able to counter this guy in an intelligent way,”

“Our so-called leaders can’t take the country forward, can’t get anything done. Like children, they are. Trump has shown all this,”

Which sounds all very positive for Trump. Except its along interview and one of those interviews where direct quotes are alongside summaries of intervening conversation without direct quotes, such as this bit for example-

'Nor does he see much other TV or cinema. When I ask what he likes to watch, Lynch says crime shows and car shows, but declines to elaborate.'

And what Fox left out were those in-between summaries in the above quotes, here's what it actually says in-between-

'He is undecided about Donald Trump.'

'While Trump may not be doing a good job himself, Lynch thinks, he is opening up a space where other outsiders might.'

Rather changes the slant a bit don't you think and calls the headline in particular into question? A great example of how to turn an interview that is not pro-Trump into a seeming pro-Trump story just by editing out the context remarks.
Fox News I believe  you are perpetrating what your Great Leader calls Fake News! Shame on you!




Halfy- just curious would you be aware enough to not use the term when having a discussion with a black colleague, or would you be completely oblivious to its possible offence to them? Its a phrase culturally I would associate with American media roughly 1950's-70's. I cant remember hearing it in recent times in film or tv or even books. }}}}}

Nope, wouldn't have registered even with a black colleague.

I had almost posted that Lynch interview for your benefit, Petty, but also saw how off the title was so didn't. I was kind of hoping Trump would be more disruptive, but since the republicans have knuckled under to his shenanigans he didn't serve the purpose I wanted. I wanted both parties to see him as the enemy and so be brought together over him, ending this crippling partisanship we've had for decades. It was but a fool's hope I suppose.

Nope, wouldn't have registered even with a black colleague.- Halfy

{{language is so fascinating, can see why Tolkien got captivated at how it works when you add minds to it! I assume when you use it the phrase it's only association would be the same as when I use the UK equivalent 'you've lost it!' (itself just a single word version of the original full phrase, 'you've lost the plot') so when you use it there would be no inkling of association with anything else. What makes it interesting in this case is that the phrase seems so obviously dodgy in isolation.
I had assumed like nigger, coon ect it had simply disappeared from use through changing social attitudes, which is why I associated it with media of the past. But its fascinating how sometimes something else, maybe the sound of it, the way it rolls on the tongue, can make a word of phrase survive and outstrip its original associations.}}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Its a phrase culturally I would associate with American media roughly 1950's-70's. I cant remember hearing it in recent times in film or tv or even books. }}}}}

My memory is that "cotton picking" used to be used pretty freely as a generic euphemism for "fucking", like "gosh darned" for "god damned". It was years before I made any racial connections, even though they're obvious looking back.

{{{ Was thinking about that Lynch headline. Its a right wing slant on a non-right wing piece.
And so got eh headline- Filmmaker David Lynch Believes Trump could be one of greatest Presidents in history'.

But had say CNN decided to run a story before Fox got it they could well from the same interview have gone with-

Filmmaker David Lynch believes Trump not doing a good job'

And had an outlet whose editorial stance is to pretend not to have an editorial stance (they exist,looking at you Channel 4 news!) could have gone with -

Filmmaker David Lynch undecided about Donald Trump.

All from the same article and all because each outlet is allowed to make an editorial decision on which bits they cherry pick- there is no obligation on them to report the caveats or even a context which changes the meaning. They can simply lift a few phrases out of context and present them in whatever light is editorially necessary.
And this is why people have so much less trust in the media. They never report all the news, just the bit they want you to hear presented in a way that is always favourable to their chosen side. But in the age of the internet when its possible if you can find the time to check sources and alternative outlets people are more and more aware of this.
Problem is there are few reliable places to go for actual news- all of it in one place where you dont have to go double checking for yourself just to get the full picture (I check about 6-8 different main news outlets a day, and if I have the time some of the more out there ones just to see what the fringes on all sides are up to. It takes a good chunk of time, especially if I also check sources)
I'm not sure what the solution is, but there is definitely a problem. A good start might be not to have so many media outlets owned by so few. And some sort of legal obligation on news outlets to both clearly label what is an opinion show and what is actual news, and to have some rule on balanced reporting and presenting equal views in equal amounts of time



Dave- as in 'you cotton-picking son of a gun!' That sort of thing? Which is the sort of phrase I would definitely ascribe to US media of yesteryear rather than present day.}}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{ Dave- as in 'you cotton-picking son of a gun!' That sort of thing? Which is the sort of phrase I would definitely ascribe to US media of yesteryear rather than present day.}}}

Exactly! That's the way all cowboy sidekicks had to talk until the Hayes Act disappeared in the late 60's when they eased the standards on profanity. TV followed in the 70's. That doesn't mean it wasn't implicitly racist, it's just that many of us never even thought about it till much later. At the time it was just a silly word you could say and not get your mouth washed with soap....

Maxine Waters stirring up the mob and on the verge of inciting violence. We have already seen what happened to Steve Scalise and Rand Paul? When will it be enough for you? Are people going to have to die to satisfy you? I am more motivated to vote in the primary and in November than ever. After all of this I will never vote for a democrat for the rest of my life.

bungobaggins wrote: After all of this I will never vote for a democrat for the rest of my life.

Congratulations Bungo, you've reached the halfway point.  
Now if you look closely you'll see that the Republican Party is just as unethical and self serving as the Democrats, and that just like the attorneys they mostly are, they fight like pitbulls in public and then go out for drinks together after work. They're giving us the choice of Coke vs. Pepsi.  
As you know, I've never voted for either.  Independent all the way!

Maxine Waters stirring up the mob and on the verge of inciting violence.- Bungo

{{Stupid thing for her to say, doesn't help anyone. Though is quite funny watching Fox news tie itself in knots trying to say refusal to serve someone because you disagree with their politics- bad. Refusal to serve someone because they are gay- good.

When will it be enough for you? Are people going to have to die to satisfy you?- Bungo

{{Who is the mysterious 'you' here?

The overall level of political discourse in the US right now is appalling on all sides- you cant just condemn a Democrat for saying something stupid when your President is calling human beings and children an infestation. Its disgusting language to use in the public sphere all round, and stupidly dangerous. I imagine there's a fair few immigrant kids getting bullied called a gangster, mugger, thief, druggy and worse thanks to Trump's twitter rhetoric alone. Trump has pulled the level of discourse down since the beginning, name-calling, boasting about his penis size from the debate podium, mocking the disabled ect ect
Its stupid no matter who says it. }}}

Yep, bad on all sides, though let's not forget who led the charge.

I disagreed strongly with the restaurant throwing out Sarah Huckabee - if she was a policy maker I may have had some sympathy. I was glad to find they had a staff discussion first, it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. But it still drags things down, and we don't need that, and those below policy making level especially don't deserve this treatment.