Re: Doctor Who [11]

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:48 pm

Amarie- from what I can glean whilst trying to avoid spoilers this series is very experimental indeed (

Spoiler:

)

by **Amarië** Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:48 pm

{{{I think this thread will permanently disqualify us from getting any seats in the UN... Imagine us trying to causally and diplomatically chat with Putin and not start a world war. }}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:51 pm

On the bright side we'd probably be allowed in UNIT Nod

by **Amarië** Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:53 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Amarie- from what I can glean whilst trying to avoid spoilers this series is very experimental indeed (
Spoiler:
)

Oooohhhh that does sound promising!!!! cheers

by **Amarië** Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:55 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:On the bright side we'd probably be allowed in UNIT

It's good to have a backup plan. pub

by bungobaggins Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:25 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

'I thought Missy was dead or something. '- Forest

As happens every single time they clash- yet somehow always comes back again!

Terribly predictable. Then don't show her getting disintegrated! Just have her escape on a broomstick, cackling as she flies away.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:31 pm

Its happened every single time the Doctor has defeated the Master- that TimeLord has come back from certain death over and over- usually with no explanation for how given at all in classic era- he just popped back up again eventually- or where a reason is given its vague and doesn't really make much sense- like RTD era Master being resurrected through a ring and some lipstick or some such nonsense. Its hardly a new thing or a Moffat thing.
My own thought when I watched it first time was she had an out plan anyway- she seemed to very deliberately place herself in that exact spot between those two gravestones- and as its a cyberman who does the shooting (all be it the brig) we don't know if she had a teleport or something that looked like she was disintegrated- nor do we know if there will be an explanation for it or not in the new series- there may well be. Moffat tends to think of these things ahead of time- such as the TARDIS phone hanging off the hook at the end of series 7 tying in with 11's phone call at the start of series 8.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:28 pm

For the record I make it 20 contemporary London episodes in RTD era out of 46 (and thats not including episodes where they spend part of the time there). Thats nearly half of all RTD episodes! What a waste of a TARDIS!
And 2 Victorian era episodes out of 55 for Moffat.
Not much of a comparison!

by Mrs Figg Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:43 pm

RTD was so good I didn't really notice, I just got the magic.

by **Amarië** Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:44 pm

Like you said. They change clothes so you can't count like that. Besides, what was Missy wearing in all those glimpses of her in Heaven?

by Mrs Figg Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:49 pm

Missy definitely has a uniform. Simms had various clothes, urban grunge and smart suit depending on what he was doing. She would look far more scary if she had 'normal' clothes instead of nutty Mary Poppins. Mind you, the gurning and eye rolling has to go.

by **Amarië** Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:54 pm

Oh and each episode with Vestra and/or Jenny.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:35 am

I just got the magic.- Figg

I got a pain in my head from having to watch it. Mad

A creepy pedo whiny emo Doctor falling in love with a companion who by comparison is a child (and would still be on Gallifrey I may add) didn't help either. Mad

'what was Missy wearing in all those glimpses of her in Heaven?'- Amarie

A different outfit and in a different colour than in these pictures. Why?

by Mrs Figg Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:47 am

you mean like Amy? when he actually does stalk a child, or do you mean Clara when the whiny pedo stalks another child. At least Rose was legal.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:42 am

There is no hint or indication of anything other than concern in either of those cases- with Rose the writer choose to make it unambiguously romantic- which is just wrong and so not the Doctor- compare 10's dodgy crush on Rose to 11's reaction to Amy trying it on "But you're Amy! You're human!" 10 is creepy as hell and dodgy as hell. Especially by the standards of his own people. 11 is surprised but horrified in equal measure.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:37 pm

Morally dodgy whiny emo 10th Doctor in ROMANTIC scene with his companion-

Uncomprehending, shocked and surprised 11th Doctor utterly rejecting any possibility of romance of any sort-

And of course there was all this with 10-

I always felt this exchange between 10 and 11 in Day was about more than zygons-

DOCTOR 10: What are you doing here? I'm busy.
DOCTOR: Oh, busy. I see. Is that what we're calling it, eh? Eh? Hello, ladies.
DOCTOR 10: Don't start.
DOCTOR: Listen, what you get up to in the privacy of your own regeneration is your business.
DOCTOR 10: One of them is a Zygon.
DOCTOR: Urgh. I'm not judging you.

by **Amarië** Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:10 pm

There's a big difference between the slowly developing mutual respect and love between Rose and 10, and the messed up girl who throws herself at 11 because she thinks she knows him.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:34 pm

I dont see how there can be mutual respect- he has vastly more experience and understanding and knowledge than her and over a 900 years on her- its just wrong on every level. As a forty odd year old I wouldn't date an 18 year old as no matter how you dress it up the extra life experience will always give you an unfair advantage over them, and with the Doctor multiply that a millionfold- and I don't like the thought of the Doctor romantically taking advantage of teenage human girls- its weird, wrong and creepy.

And Amy doesn't throw herself at him because she thinks she knows him- she throws herself at him because she just nearly died (as she says in that clip) and her experience of being let down by the Doctor as a child means that she now just goes for what she wants in the moment without thought for consequences- in this case she fancies the Doctor, wants to have sex with him, not a relationship, and sees the opportunity, and her near death experience leads her to just go for it, despite it being the night before her wedding and that she really does in fact love Rory.
I think that's good character depth myself, her actions express the central turmoil of her childhood and the main theme which drives the Doctor/Amy dynamic- her waiting for him and his guilt over screwing up her life- hence his 'we have to get you sorted'- he feels responsible for breaking her life, and a duty to set it back right again. That's good, solid complex character writing with depth.

by Mrs Figg Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:48 pm

Amarië wrote:There's a big difference between the slowly developing mutual respect and love between Rose and 10, and the messed up girl who throws herself at 11 because she thinks she knows him.

agreed.

Rose never sexually attacks the Doctor, they have too much friendship and mutual respect, unlike Amy who begs for sex and doesn't have much self respect being a thing-o-gram which is code for sex worker. Donna never flirts period. Its mainly Moffat females who are sexually obsessed by the Doctor.
and Smiths Doctor creeps round playing fields looking for children to traumatize. its weird.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:56 pm

Rose never sexually attacks the Doctor- Figg

Amy tries it on once and is rejected- it never happens again.
Rose kisses the Doctor on several occasions- and when they get Rose to do it whatever other main female is in the cast does it instead, even Rose possessed has to snog him and feel herself up in a very sexula manner as Cassandra. There is nothing to compare to that in Moffat Who.

As to 11 'creeps round playing fields looking for children to traumatize. its weird. ' is just pure nonsense not even vaguely justifiable by what happens in the episodes- its not what happens at all in fact and is just a gross misrepresentation.
He meets Amy as a child because the TARDIS crash-lands there when he regens from 10, and the TARDIS takes him there drawn to the crack in the fabric of the universe centred on young Amy, it has nothing to with 11 who is still regening and confused at the time.
With Clara he thinks she is a trap set for him by some unknown adversary (and not the first time) he checks out her childhood to see if there is something which happens, some alien interference or something that might explain her seeming impossibility- what he discovers is that she is perfectly normal.
There is absolutely nothing in that, or in the Doctors motivation which could even at a severe stretch be called 'creeping' or traumatising (save Amy- but his screwing up of her life is a central narrative theme that happens by accident and he spends the next three years of the show trying to fix)

Its mainly Moffat females who are sexually obsessed by the Doctor.- Figg

Did you even watch the vid of 10 snogging ever female in sight? 11 kisses two people that way - Amy once which he rejects utterly, and River, who is his wife.

by Bluebottle Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:05 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Rose never sexually attacks the Doctor, they have too much friendship and mutual respect, unlike Amy who begs for sex and doesn't have much self respect being a thing-o-gram which is code for sex worker. Donna never flirts period. Its mainly Moffat females who are sexually obsessed by the Doctor.
and Smiths Doctor creeps round playing fields looking for children to traumatize. its weird.

Well.. I'd say that's harsh... to put it mildly. Razz

But I do agree that if one views that scene from the perspective of Amy's character instead of the Doctor's, it does tie in a little to neatly with how Moffat likes to write his female characters. Therefore I'm not sure how well it works as an example of Moffat getting something right. Shrugging

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:09 pm

I do agree that if one views that scene from the perspective of Amy's character instead of the Doctor's, it does tie in a little to neatly with how Moffat likes to write his female characters.- Blue

Not sue what you mean by that Blue- if you mean the snog scene then from Amy's point of view she is sick of waiting, she has had a near death experience, and she is acting impulsively, all stemming from her difficult childhood which resulted from encountering her 'imaginary friend' who has returned. I can't think of any other female character to whom those set of circumstances, emotions and motivations could apply in Moffat Who- what other female characters did you have in mind?

by Bluebottle Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:19 pm

I mean that Moffat likes to write his women as promiscuous and taking the initiative, bordering on the socially aggressive. Feisty and curious. Amy would throw herself at the Doctor, because she, in Moffats words, is a young girl and he's a likely lad and that's what a young girl would do..

by Bluebottle Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:23 pm

Interesting and rather level headed article that helps illustrate the basis for this kind of criticism.

Women have always been key to the success of Doctor Who. Since the show began in 1963, the Doctor has often traveled with at least one companion, usually female, who helps him defeat evil alien foes and escape the trickiest of situations with just a sonic screwdriver. But creating the “supporting” role presents a challenge for the show’s writers: how to write women in a way so it is clear they’re not just in the Tardis to flirt with the Doctor?

The challenge has grown along with the show’s fanbase. In the US, the long-running BBC series, once a cult fan favorite which rebooted to little fanfare in 2005, now graces the cover of Entertainment Weekly and has midnight premieres in movie theaters. And Steven Moffat, the showrunner and head writer, has had to field more than a few questions about how he treats his leading ladies.

The main criticism directed at Moffat is that he writes women in a way that ties them very closely to the men around them: they don’t, or can’t, exist without a male presence in place to guide them. Let’s look at who Moffat created to accompany the Doctor through time and space: River Song, Amy Pond and Clara Oswald.

River is a gun-toting badass who is romantically entwined with the Doctor. Amy is feisty and curious, and tries to kiss the Doctor the night before her wedding. Clara and the Twelfth Doctor, played by series newcomer Peter Capaldi, are supposed to have a refreshing lack of sexual tension. But Moffat overplays it in the season eight opener, which premieres tonight, with some heavy-handed dialogue about whether or not the Doctor is actually Clara’s boyfriend. It almost makes one wistful for the days of Russell T Davies, when the Tenth Doctor told a heartbroken Rose: “Does it really need saying?”

In May, a group of university students applied the Bechdel Test to the female characters on Doctor Who, and found significant differences between those created under Moffat and those created under Davies. They found decreases in onscreen speaking times for companions, total speaking times for women, and the number of speaking roles for women.

It’s clear Moffat has some work to do, but we also must give credit where credit is due: the season eight premiere features quite a lot of the Silurian-human lesbian couple, Madame Vastra and Jenny Flint, fandom bait who are perfectly capable of fighting the bad guys with or without the Doctor.

Outside his scripts for the show, Moffat has been accused before of making sexist comments or dismissing criticism. His critics say, he doesn’t seem to understand when his humor comes off as witty and when it comes off as arrogant, as when he referred to Rose Tyler, who absorbed the time vortex and survived, as the Doctor’s “slightly needy girlfriend”.

With the debut of Capaldi, the oldest actor to play the Doctor since the reboot began, we may have to start talking about ageism as well as sexism. The season opener contains far too many references to the Doctor’s new visible age.

Does Moffat really worry he’s going to alienate his younger female viewers? Is it necessary for Clara to have to grapple with the ageing of Matt Smith into Peter Capaldi when the Time Lord is about 2,000 years old anyway?

The show’s portrayal of women isn’t perfect, but it’s not a dealbreaker for this female viewer, either. Moffat has written enough brilliant episodes in the past that we know he has it in him to bring strong females forward (never forget Sally Sparrow).

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2014/aug/23/doctor-who-steven-moffat-sexism

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:26 pm

Except those are not the narrative reasons given in the episodes or the story.
The stated reasons are there- her childhood, re-meeting her imaginary friend, having a near death experience- and that in turn feeds into the Doctors sense of guilt over the whole thing and his determination to put matters right somehow.

There is no other female character like that in Moffat Who or with that relationship with the Doctor.
There is nothing in the story or narrative which says Amy is promiscuous outside of this one occasion which is under very exceptional circumstances. She is faithful the entire time she is with Rory - unlike say Rose who cheats on Mickey then gets jealous and angry when he moves on from her.
Nor is River promiscuous for that matter, nor is she sexually aggressive with the Doctor, their fist kiss doesn't come until after she is imprisoned in series 6, and then its tragic as its his first with her and her last with him. They only ever kiss twice more, when they get married and after that in Name of the Doctor, when again its sad as its their final farewell.
Clara can by no means be described as promiscuous or sexually aggressive. There are no examples of either at all.

So I still dont get how you can come to that conclusion based on the episodes.