FREEDOM!!!! [4]

The Tories are allowed to put their propaganda everywhere, and nobody does anything to stop them, if needs some paint or a flamethrower.

Good run-through of the current inquiry into the actions of the Scottish government in the Salmond-case:

https://twitter.com/CliveWismayer/status/1367421967939366913

{{ I'd take some issue with that account from the off Blue- he states as if fact that the motivation behind it was Salmonds imminent return to politics and it being seen as a threat by the SNP leadership. Except only Salmond says that. There is no supporting evidence this was the case. Like much of what Salmond said, it all adds to a conspiracy, but there is no actual evidence there was one.
Ive waited to comment until all sides had givent their evidence, and whilst there has been errors and mistakes, and possibly some minor lying over dates and times, there is nothing I have heard that comes close to backing up Salmonds conspiracy claims.
Sturgeon gave a very good account in front of 8 hours of hostile questioning and in the words of the BBC report on it there 'were no real punches landed and there was no smoking gun.'
The enquiry still has to make its report of course, likewise the one into if the ministerial code was breached (which it probably was but only in a minor sense, less than Pritti Patels breach for example, not a major one) and unless something new emerges I dont see this will threaten Sturgeons position. }}

{{ So far looks like Sturgeon has done enough at her appeareance to quell the conspiracy theories. The newpapers have all but dropped the story from their front pages (even the staunchiest right wing papers like the Mail which ran with nothing but how Sturgeon was in trouble prior to her appearence) and the BBC news page for Scotland it doesnt appear till halfway down the page under a banner of 'The Salmond Enquiry' and has 5 highlighted associated articles. 4 of them written before her appereance with headlines like "What is the row about?" and "Could Alex Slamond bring Nicola Sturgeon Down?"

The single article written after her apperence, and the only one the BBC has written since has the headline "Team Sturgeon Breathes a Sigh of Relief."
Which about sums up where it all stands at the moment. }}

Petty where is your faerie essay? want to read it, cant find it.

{{ Its in the 'Silmarillion and Beyond section, in the thread 'Tolkien in General'. I'll be interested in your thoughts Figg as it occured to me there was possibly a similar fall off in art from depicting the more noble 'faery' of old to the dimitutive Victorian version. And you'd be best person to ask about that.

https://www.forumshire.com/t115p800-tolkien-in-general#236671 }}

Are there any artistic renditions of the Faery of old? I don't recall every seeing such a thing.

{{ Well think the earliest I can think of would be maybe 16th probably 17th century (certainly by time of Romantics movement) and they often are illustrating scenes from Midsummers Night Dream. So really need Figgs input for ealrier artistic showings of faery folk. }}

I'm way outside my wheelhouse, but I'd be surprised if such paintings existed. nearly all painting from that early is of religious subjects; painting was too expensive a proposition to be undertaking without well funded patronage, so would all be portraits or church paintings. By the time you get back to classical painting where more whimsical subjects are funded you've lost your trail.

Thanks Petty I will read it tomorrow. Have you mentioned a possible mixing up of old folklore like the pixie and Leprecaun who were notoriously mischievous spirits? being small and fairy-like beings. Sorry if you have already mentioned it.
As to art the Victorians were probably responsible for our current image of the fairy. The most influential being Richard Dadd. and in the Edwardian times the photographs of the Cottingley fairies, Conan Doyle and the fashion for supernatural stuff at that time.

I suppose my entry as a third party marked a successful Norcing.  Figgy gets credit for this one; I'm moving on.  More threads to conquer.

{{ The Tories are planning to move 500 civil servant jobs out of London and into Glasgow, in an attempt to bolters supprt for the Union. Feels somewhat like being thrown some crumbs from the masters table and being expected to be grateful for it.
The other issue with it is the reaosn why. The UK government of all stripes, if it actually gave a shit about Scottish interests, could have moved UK government offices here any time in the last few hundred years, so why now? Panic that Scotland might force a 2nd referendum. Its just a shallow attempt to bribe the people out of that, there is no real desire or care about Scotland in this.

Meanwhile in reality UK fisheries since Brexit have ssen a catastrophic fall of 88% of exports gone. The Tories say its down to covid not Brexit.
Slight problem there the 12% still exporting fine, is the 12% that goes to anywhere but the EU. Given its a global pandemic if it were the cause it would affect all sales across the board, but its just exports to the EU that have collpased. So its Brexit. Which is the Tory baby, so its their fault.
Fish famrs are one of the biggest employers around here, weve got two major ones close by, the biggest being Loch Fyne Oysters, which directly employs over a hundred workers and indirectly in the supply chain thousands. Given there isnt much indusrty or job opportunities here losing or a reduction in such a company would be a much bigger blow than it might seem just losing hundred odd jobs.

In further insulting action Gove is apprently proposing that 2 weeks out the year the UK government sits at Holyrood- literally imposing Westminister on the Scottish Parliament. Not sure mind you that is likely to bolster support for the Union!}}

My view on History of this country has changed dramatically. The more I see & hear the more Im steered towards us ( the English ) being the most two faced, devious, underhand, untrustworthy & revengeful lot the English actually are. The further you go back in history the worse it gets. They used to say the working man is the back bone of this society --- I say its greed with a soupcon of treachery, a splash of deceipt, & 2 hefty tablespoons of good old lies.

I just read an article that says ten to twenty years ago England had it made: one of the best health care systems in the world, arguably the best broadcasting network in the BBC, strong relations with all trading partners. Then the conservatives came in and systematically threw it all under the bus. The author was calling the British the stupidest people in the world for throwing that all away democratically.

{{ England thew us under a bus- Scotland hasnt voted Tory since the 1950's. It has and always will boggle my mind why anyone votes Tory except the weathly and rich as they are the only people the Tories are interested in helping, and they have no shame or fear in destroying, selling off, undermining the country, or taking away help from the poorest if they and their friends are making a buck off it happening. }}

This generation of British gammons are probably the most politically lazy, thick as mince, self-satisfied, I am alright Jackers in history. And the young are no better, cancel culture, identity politics hysterics, inane social media muppets who are celebrity obsessed, unable to conduct adult debate without resorting to bullying.

{{ Az like rest of UK its not the working folk of England are the problem, its the weatlhy elite and the Tories that support them. There is not much different between the working poor or unemployed in Newcastle or Liverpool and those in Glasgow or Dundee (the Scots are slightly better off, less tax for the working poor, frozen council tax rates, and better fringe benefits like free prescriptions but otherwie same shit).
The reason so many Scots feel we need independence, myself among them, is that is exactly the sort of thing we want to find better solutions for, but that seems unlikely to ever happen, or indeed impossible to happen so long as England returns a Tory government to rule over us over and over. So the only way to ensure that doesnt happen is to get out the Union. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I'd take some issue with that account from the off Blue- he states as if fact that the motivation behind it was Salmonds imminent return to politics and it being seen as a threat by the SNP leadership. Except only Salmond says that. There is no supporting evidence this was the case. Like much of what Salmond said, it all adds to a conspiracy, but there is no actual evidence there was one.
Ive waited to comment until all sides had givent their evidence, and whilst there has been errors and mistakes, and possibly some minor lying over dates and times, there is nothing I have heard that comes close to backing up Salmonds conspiracy claims.
Sturgeon gave a very good account in front of 8 hours of hostile questioning and in the words of the BBC report on it there 'were no real punches landed and there was no smoking gun.'
The enquiry still has to make its report of course, likewise the one into if the ministerial code was breached (which it probably was but only in a minor sense, less than Pritti Patels breach for example, not a major one) and unless something new emerges I dont see this will threaten Sturgeons position. }}

Not my view on procedings. My impression alignes more with this: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19141852.iain-macwhirter-salmond-blasted-blunderbuss-sturgeon-applied-subtle-knife/

Sturgeon spent far too much time going after Salmond for matters her government's improvised, unlawful, biased and procedurally unfair process failed to prove (spending 600.000 £ on legal costs on a process they conceeded under pressure from their own external council) and a jury of Salmond's peers cleared him off unequivocally (often relying on independent eye-witness testimony directly contradicting the accusations). The actions of Sturgeon's government was up on review, not Salmond on matters he's been cleared off. The continued witholding of central evidence from the committee, and the crown office running political defence for the government puts the matter in a much worse light. Add in Sturgeon misleading parliament on when she learned of the details of the matter there is no wonder she is finding herself in political hot water (motion of no confidence to come?). About the best thing that could happen to Sturgeon is for people to move the goalposts to either to a "Salmond is to blame for the unlawful actions of her government" or a "Salmond must prove a conspiracy", which is neither here nor there. Note as mentioned heavily damaging evidence is still being withheld from the inquiry.

{{ I doubt there will be a vote of no confidence- the opposition dropped the idea after Sturgeons 8 hour appearence and the failure of hostile questioners to nail her on any of it. Instead they tried to go after the Deputy Swinney instead last week for not giing all the legal advice over (despite it taking an entire enquiry into the Iraq war to get even a hint of the legal advice the tories received and there othewrise being long standing precedent govt advice from lawyers is not public) and the vote of no confidence in Swinney failed and didnt get the votes in the Parliament. So unless the committe itself or the probe into if the Ministerial code was broken comes up with something new in its findings Sturgeon is effectively in the clear politically. }}

{{ Update on the Sturgeon matter.
There are 2 investigations into the matter.
The firat a Parliamentary Committe made up of MSP's.
And a second independent review by an Irish lawyer.

The Committe came out 5-4 in favour of Sturgeon having misled Parliament.
We only knew this as someone on the Tory/labour side of the committee leaked the result to the press before it was due to be published- presumably in the hope the press would dominate with Sturgeon found guiilty rather focus on the lack of credible evidence in the report.
But the result is hard to take credibly as the vote was along entirely partisan lines, and it fails to cite any evidence for why or how she misled Parliament, merely that the Committe 'found it hard to believe' she did not have prior knowledge of the allegations against Salmond.

Nevertheless as a result of this the Scottish Tories have scheduled a vote of no confidence in the First Minister in order to remove her from office before Scotland goes to the polls next month.

The second report is considered by far the more reliable and serious of the two, being both independent of government and looked over from a legal stance if Sturgeon breached the ministerial code (normally a resigning matter if so).

Heres the accusaitons that report looked into and the conclusion-

'In the conclusion of his 61-page report, James Hamilton said he had examined four alleged breaches of the ministerial code by Nicola Sturgeon.

1. The allegation that her failure to record meetings and telephone discussions with Alex Salmond and others in March, April, June and July 2018 amounted to a breach of of the Ministerial Code.

2. The allegation that the first minister may have attempted to influence the conduct of the investigation then being undertaken by the permanent secretary into allegations made against Mr Salmond under the Procedure for Handling of Harassment Complaints involving Current or Former Ministers.

3. The allegation that the first minister misled the Scottish Parliament in relation to her meetings.

4. The allegation that the first minister was in breach of her duty to comply with the law in respect of the Scottish government’s response to the petition of Mr Salmond for a judicial review.

He concluded:

'For the reasons set out in detail above in this report I am of the opinion that the first minister did not breach the provisions of the ministerial code in respect of any of these matters.'
James Hamilton


This second report means the Greens will almost certaintly not side with Tory and Labour in the no confidence vote, ensuring it will fail.
But even to go ahead with it, so close to an election when the independent inquiry found no breach of the Code is playing naked politics a month for the election, and may in fact harm them if the fact a further 13,000 have signed themselves up as SNP party members in th epast week as a result of this.

My prediction is that Sturgeon will survive this, and if the Tories push the vote of no confindence she will survive that and rightly the people will decide at the poll next month. }}

That all seems like minor cause for a no confidence vote, even if all true.

{{ They are terrified of the SNP getting a majority at the election next month (I think it unlikely anyway given the way the Parliament is voted on being designed for there to be no majorities) and pushing throgh a 2nd independnece referndum bill, which they have already drafted.
Given Sturgeon is far and away the most popular leader in the UK, and has been for years now, and in Scoland the SNP easily the most popular party they dont think they can beat her at the polls- hence get rid of her before the vote- this is their second attempt in the past month, the last failed when it was clear they did not have the numbers, and instead they switched it to a vote of no confidence in her Deputy Leader instead, that failed too.
They are simply desperate to damage the SNP any way they can going into the election, anything to stop a majority win and make a 2nd referndum harder to achieve.

I expect much more dirty underhand tactics to emerge yet- Westminister has never been clear if it uses the secret service against the SNP. THat means they almost certianly do (they can get away with that as Westminister is tasked with 'Acting in the best interests, safety and security of the UK' And the SNP breaking up the UK is therefore not in the UK's best interests- from Westministers pov, making use of any tactic fair game.)}}

{{Update - the vote of no confidence, if the Tories still go for it will fail. The Greens wont back it.}}

Scottish Greens co-leader Patrick Harvie said his party would not support the Conservatives' vote of no confidence in the first minister.
“In lodging a vote of no confidence before this report was published, just as they called for the first minister's resignation before she even gave evidence to the parliamentary committee, the Tories have shown that they have no interest in establishing the truth," he said.
Mr Harvie said James Hamilton had clearly concluded that Nicola Sturgeon did not breach the ministerial code.
He said the independent report "retains credibility in this process, unlike the parliamentary committee which has repeatedly sabotaged its own authority and betrayed the trust of original complainers". - BBC News

{{ More from the independent review report-

'The report examines allegations that Nicola Sturgeon had failed to record a series of meetings and telephone discussions with Alex Salmond and others in 2018.
James Hamilton concluded that the meetings were government business - contrary to Ms Sturgeon's claims that they were a party matter.
But he accepted her reasoning that "it would have been impossible to record such meetings or discussions without a risk of prejudicing the proceedings or interfering with their confidentiality".
The report also notes that by July 2018, Ms Sturgeon's relationship with Mr Salmond was breaking down.
"In her opinion he was clearly upset and angry that she was not assisting him to achieve the outcome he wanted," writes Mr Hamilton.
"The first minister states that she was also upset with him. She says that the nature of the complaints against him and the account he had given her of one of them had badly shaken her faith in him.
"She states, however, that in spite of that she did not want their relationship to break down completely. He had been her friend and colleague for 30 years."- BBC News

and an interesting analysis-}}

'I think Ms Sturgeon might be quite happy to talk about leadership for the next six weeks, because compared to all the other leaders, Ms Sturgeon is still – even in the wake of this inquiry – by far and away the most popular. By making leadership a central issue, the difficulty now for the opposition is have they played into the SNP’s hands? - Sir John CurticeProfessor of politics at Strathclyde University'

{{ Vote of no confidence in Sturgeon tabled by the Tories has predictably failed. }}

'MSPs voted by 65 to 31 to reject the motion, with the Greens backing the SNP and Labour and the Liberal Democrats abstaining.'