Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{I think you have misread some of (ok all of) what he is saying Figg. For example he does not say 'when men were men and women women' straight faced, its done mockingly as he also points out the fact that she never knew the guy till he grabbed her, and in the picture that did not go public she is clearly not enjoying the moment of being grabbed. He is not harking back to those days as something to be wished for, he is highlighting the hypocrisy of them.
To suggest the author is in some way saying thats ok men were men thats my real agenda is, to me, completely misreading his point.

slut shaming mostly comes from men- Figg

Not in my experience. In over twenty years working in a female dominant environment I can say, overwhelming, the most abuse suffered by women comes from other women. Its not even a contest.

As to the bikini thing- he is absolutely right, how could it be any other way- as a young male your entire young life is bombarded with images of beautiful women in bikinis acting sexually provocative, either as entertainment, music videos, or to sell product- how else then when you are first confronted by women in bikinis are you meant to see it? The context you have from everything society throws at you is bikini = sexy.
Its a hypocrisy of society- same goes for schoolgirls- in real life they lock you up- but in society the image is sexualised all the time- we only have Britney Spears because she dressed like a schoolgirl put her hair in bunches and got famous singing 'hit me baby one more time'. You couldn't make it up.

But if you bombard young boys with these associations its hardly surprising many grew up still with them. }}}

[Mrs Figg]

so bombarding young girls minds with images of men in sexy boy band poses, and tight jeans confuses the poor dears into thinking its ok to grab a mans dick. do me a favour we are not as stupid as you think. this is pandering. all young adults know the correct behaviour in public places but when they don't and are caught and prosecuted, something which is new in human civilisation, because before the abuse of women went unpunished, now there are consequences, suddenly excuses have to be found. ie its womens fault for being sexy.
there is something called self control. we learn it past the age of 3.

[David H]

This is exactly why I've always waited for women to ask me

[Mrs Figg]

The articles title says 'why do men not understand consent'. and then goes on to 'explain' why they don't. this seems to consist of the fact that men find women too sexy to resist because they walk about in bikinis. well IS have an answer for that, wear a burkah or lock them up at home. but really this is mediaeval nonsense, men don't 'understand' consent because very simply they don't choose to, the alternative defence would be they are all autistic and cant understand simple visual clues a Chimpanzee could pick up. This article sux.

[David H]

they are all autistic and cant understand simple visual clues a Chimpanzee could pick up.

{{{Spooky! It's like she looked into my soul! }}}

[halfwise]

The articles title says 'why do men not understand consent'. and then goes on to 'explain' why they don't. this seems to consist of the fact that men find women too sexy to resist because they walk about in bikinis. well IS have an answer for that, wear a burkah or lock them up at home. but really this is mediaeval nonsense, men don't 'understand' consent because very simply they don't choose to, the alternative defence would be they are all autistic and cant understand simple visual clues a Chimpanzee could pick up. This article sux.

I have to say that you have completely, totally misread the article, as Petty pointed out. This is clear when you got outraged at him calling Han a hero who can do what he wants. The point is that this is the message that is being broadcast, and it's totally screwing up young men.

Go back, take a breath, and reread the article. Clearly certain triggers were set off before the point was reached (equivalent to reading "Trump is brilliant!" and going apeshit without realizing it's sarcasm) and the point was missed that he was saying how completely wrong all this is and the problem won't be fixed until the social media message is fixed.

[Pettytyrant101]

This is exactly why I've always waited for women to ask me- David

{{{Quite agree with the thinking there Dave- in the modern world its the only way to be safe- its why I think its time for a total reversal and women should always make the first move, probably best if its in writing, signed and dated too.....}}}

[Mrs Figg]

reread it and I stand by my comments. watching movies cannot turn people into gropers, its like saying watching Batman makes people jump off buildings thinking they can fly. this argument doesn't fly. its society at large that is the problem, if society at large was healthy it wouldn't allow the sexualisation of women on magazine covers and films. consent is not confusing and saying it is, is the biggest cop-out ever.

[David H]

I'll confess that I'd never once thought about how horrible that scene with Han and Lea is, and I've probably watched it 50 times.
There are a lot of great old movies that are hard to watch as a couple now because of the casual physical dominance.

[halfwise]

reread it and I stand by my comments. watching movies cannot turn people into gropers, its like saying watching Batman makes people jump off buildings thinking they can fly. this argument doesn't fly. its society at large that is the problem, if society at large was healthy it wouldn't allow the sexualisation of women on magazine covers and films. consent is not confusing and saying it is, is the biggest cop-out ever.

It's a reinforcing loop.  You are saying that media is the symptom, not the problem.  Only half true.  Society lets/nudges media into this, which is a prime conduit into young minds.  If you make changing the media a focal point, it forces society to look at itself.  Images such as the cool Han Solo confidently forcing himself on Leia and her acquiescence are insidious and DO make an impression; especially if there's no counter impressions (the only things out there are women turning down obviously slimy dudes, not the good guys: and we all think of ourselves as the good guys).

Consent IS confusing because it's not clear how to get it without outright asking.  There's no place to get guidance except the media, and it presents the wrong picture - mainly that if she indicates "no" that continued persistence will pay off.  

Women may think consent is simple, but they are not the ones typically making that final crucial move.  It's difficult to explain non-verbal cues that mean 'yes', hence there are no guideBOOKS.  You have to SEE it (or stumble into experiencing it), which is why most of the guidance does in fact come from the media, and it's largely wrong.

You've seen Petty and Dave both express their desire to have the burden removed from them as too confusing (I concur).  We could compile a long list of things that we've read as clear "yes" that meant nothing of the kind - a young woman's tendency to gaze deep into the eyes of someone she considers a close friend comes to mind - and you'll see that a gaping hole is being filled by dangerously misleading on-screen portrayals.

[David H]

Yeah, reading non-verbal signals is one of those things like singing harmony. Some fortunate people are born with the ability and can't understand what's wrong with the rest of us, who either make fools of ourselves publicly or learn to do our singing only in the company of close friends (and preferably with alcohol ).

[Mrs Figg]

this so called lack of ability to understand consent is bollocks. people should have learnt this stuff by the time they are teenagers.

[Lancebloke]

Think that is a bit of a naive comment Figgy. Not all situations are that black and white.

I mean if you are forcing yourself on someone who is saying 'no' then yes... that is very clear. But what if the they are playing games and the next week is all over you (say trying to make someone else jealous which I have seen happen time and again!)

Does that now mean yes? For how long? What are the circumstances in which it is yes for this person versus another?

[David H]

this so called lack of ability to understand consent is bollocks. people should have learnt this stuff by the time they are teenagers.

Consent is clear enough if it's spoken or written. It's the concept that there's such a thing as non-verbal or implied consent that screws everybody up.  
In my opinion we should eliminate that completely.
Ask a straight question, get a straight answer, and shake hands on the deal. That's the way farmers like to do business!  

Edit: to your "people should have learned by the time they're teenagers" point - that would probably be from movies, TV and video games, like everything else kids learn, right?

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Got to agree with Lance Figg. The idea that you expect teenage boys to be able to distinguish nonverbal sexual communication from women, infallibly is ridiculous. Most of us still cant do it as adults.

Good example from another true tale, this one a friend not me but illustrates the problem.

Way back when we were all in college there was this girl my friend really fancied- they got on really well. But it became clear to him quite quickly that she had put him firmly in the friend zone- except when she had a drink- then she became incredibly flirty with him, very sexually suggestive, very touchy feely with his body, draping her arms and legs round him ect dragging him up for sexy dances usual sort of stuff.
Had I been asked at the time by him if I thought she was into him, I would have no doubt said in my coarse youthful way, "mate she is fucking gagging for it."

And so it appeared to me, presumably to my friend and everyone else who saw her like that with him.

Then one of these nights when they had all been out drinking in a group and she was again acting this way towards him, my friend thought, screw it, I'm going for it whilst the offers on the table. And he did. She went back to his with him.

Two days later she went to the police and accused him of sexual assault and rape when she was too drunk to give consent.

Fortunately he was eventually completely cleared by the courts of any wrongdoing whatsoever, but not before his name was dragged through the mud on campus.

How the hell is a guy supposed to read that womans signals? They are all over the place, contradictory. Different every time they met. At one moment she is calling him quite clearly a friend and mate and then next thing its honey and babe. And you expect teenagers to be able to work through this quagmire instinctively?!


Dave- that sounds like a sensible way to do things to me }}}

[Mrs Figg]

Think that is a bit of a naive comment Figgy. Not all situations are that black and white.

I mean if you are forcing yourself on someone who is saying 'no' then yes... that is very clear. But what if the they are playing games and the next week is all over you (say trying to make someone else jealous which I have seen happen time and again!)

Does that now mean yes? For how long? What are the circumstances in which it is yes for this person versus another?

then if they are playing games all you do is tell them to stop playing games. that's not mixed signals that's someone being a tit. which an adult can normally spot a mile off. but even if they are being a tit and you fall for it, and go for it, and they get uppity and refuse you, then all you need to do is say ok bye. whats the problem?

[Mrs Figg]

this so called lack of ability to understand consent is bollocks. people should have learnt this stuff by the time they are teenagers.

Consent is clear enough if it's spoken or written. It's the concept that there's such a thing as non-verbal or implied consent that screws everybody up.  
In my opinion we should eliminate that completely.
Ask a straight question, get a straight answer, and shake hands on the deal. That's the way farmers like to do business!  

Edit: to your "people should have learned by the time they're teenagers" point - that would probably be from movies, TV and video games, like everything else kids learn, right?

no. I didn't learn from the tv or video games, I learnt from experience with real people talking to other girls and being with boys. I must have non verbal super powers though because in all my life I have never had one experience when a no was interpreted as yes. maybe my generation spent their youth actually talking to the other sex and experimenting slowly and safely, going to discos, parties and youth clubs, learning to look at another persons face and body language, their laugh, the eye contact, its basic stuff I thought everyone learnt. Mind you I never played games, I never deliberately tried to mess with someones feelings, there are people who do that, but not everyone, most people are pretty honest in their intentions. kids get carried away by hormones but respect is respect in any time or culture. respect for yourself and respect for others is key.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{if they are being a tit and you fall for it, and go for it, and they get uppity and refuse you, then all you need to do is say ok bye. whats the problem?- Figg

Its just not that simple in reality Figg- people dont act that way. That situation, that stark black and white doesnt happen often. No one here is sayingif a girl gives you the come on then says no you should carry on regardless. Thats not the issue. We all agree no is no end of.

But at which point is it first ok for a guy to physically touch a women?- nothing too intimate as such I just mean and arm round the shoulder, a hand on a thigh whatever- when is that appropriate? Answer- when she has given consent. How do you know you have consent?

There's the problem if your a guyt expected to make that first move- how do you know the firsts time that its ok now to try?
As a guy you these days not only run the risk of being accused of inappropriate sexual behaviour if you get that wrong, but just as a human being you are putting yourself out there at the risk of rejection, humilation, making a fool of yourself, or maybe ruining an otherwise potentially good friendship ect. There is a lot on that moment and picking it.

And we have very little to go on- never in my life has a woman ever said plainly, "yeah as of now you have my permission to be physically intimate with me" it just doesn't happen.

What you are left with to fall back on is trying to guess what the women actually means among the double talk hints and possibilities of conversation, try to read the body language, again based largely on previous experience. And if you have no or little previous experience, or are just young, what are you relying on to guide you? What you learn from wider society- media ect which is what that article was on about because what guys learn there is give it a go, if she resists, try again till she doesn't its all part of their game. }}}}

[halfwise]

Just to re-iterate what Dave and Petty have said: nonverbal cues are NOT something teenage boys can read, and they have no place to learn the skill.  Women think they are being obvious, they are NOT.

We can all recite detailed stories of being confused as to what the signals were, but many are person specific.  Here's a couple common trip points though (one I've already listed):

- women tend to look deep into the eyes of someone they feel comfortable with while talking.  To a young man who is already being pulled by the hormones, this is pure seduction.
- women will give warm hugs to people they approve of, men generally only want to hug those they are attracted to.  The social graces do mandate hugs in many situations and men eventually figure it out, but teenagers are largely lacking (and totally confused by) social graces.

As Dave said, some men instinctively get it.  Many more don't.  I'm reminded of something I read about fruit flies: they actually have elaborate courtship rituals.  But some hapless fruit flies don't glom onto these random moves; nothing physically wrong with them, they just don't get it.  It's a small percentage, but they never mate.

The percentage of men who just don't get it and have to learn the correct non-verbal cues and responses by slow trial and error (because there IS no guidance) is well above 50%.  Many married men I know confess they still have no clue, they just happened to hit on the magical combination to start things off right.  

But to be fair, the percentage of women who seem to understand that men just don't get it (not selfish, not arrogant, not mean, not thoughtless: just clueless) is even smaller....

Anyway, when information is lacking, any source will do. Think about it: we never get to watch people seduce each other for real, the only examples are on screen.  

The examples in books may be closer to reality but are nearly useless, believe me.  The most detailed descriptions of non-verbal cues are in romance novels (which every teenage boy flips through furtively in the dimestore), and a shocking percentage of these are along the Han Solo lines, but much, much worse.  A very common story line is she is strangely drawn to him but can't stand him because of his arrogance.  This continues up to the point where he basically rapes her, at which point she decides maybe he's not so bad.  And these are written by WOMEN.

[Mrs Figg]

{{Got to agree with Lance Figg. The idea that you expect teenage boys to be able to distinguish nonverbal sexual communication from women, infallibly is ridiculous. Most of us still cant do it as adults.

Good example from another true tale, this one a friend not me but illustrates the problem.

Way back when we were all in college there was this girl my friend really fancied- they got on really well. But it became clear to him quite quickly that she had put him firmly in the friend zone- except when she had a drink- then she became incredibly flirty with him, very sexually suggestive, very touchy feely with his body, draping her arms and legs round him ect dragging him up for sexy dances usual sort of stuff.
Had I been asked at the time by him if I thought she was into him, I would have no doubt said in my coarse youthful way, "mate she is fucking gagging for it."

And so it appeared to me, presumably to my friend and everyone else who saw her like that with him.

Then one of these nights when they had all been out drinking in a group and she was again acting this way towards him, my friend thought, screw it, I'm going for it whilst the offers on the table. And he did. She went back to his with him.

Two days later she went to the police and accused him of sexual assault and rape when she was too drunk to give consent.

Fortunately he was eventually completely cleared by the courts of any wrongdoing whatsoever, but not before his name was dragged through the mud on campus.

How the hell is a guy supposed to read that womans signals? They are all over the place, contradictory. Different every time they met. At one moment she is calling him quite clearly a friend and mate and then next thing its honey and babe. And you expect teenagers to be able to work through this quagmire instinctively?!


Dave- that sounds like a sensible way to do things to me  }}}

if she was too drunk to give consent and he screwed her while she was paralytic, that is rape because she did not give consent to sex. how is that so difficult to understand is mind boggling.. that's the trouble that footballer got into recently. he shagged a drunken girl, and knew enough about right and wrong to escape by the fire exit, because he knew he had done wrong. if a woman is drunk don't shag her. end of story. its common sense.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{At which point if she made no vocalization of having changed her mind about sex, and never passed out during, was he supposed to know she had changed her mind? He didn't in fact know she had apparently changed her mind until the police arrived at his door several days later. It hadn't even occurred to him- they had been all over each other in front of many witnesses, gone back to his had sex, as far as he knew consensual with no outward display otherwise, then two days later she claims she was too drunk to give her consent. How is the guy supposed to know this exactly? Did she genuinely feel she had been violated? Or was she just doing it because she had done something she regretted doing and needed someone else to blame? Who knows?}}}

[Mrs Figg]

{{if they are being a tit and you fall for it, and go for it, and they get uppity and refuse you, then all you need to do is say ok bye. whats the problem?- Figg

Its just not that simple in reality Figg- people dont act that way. That situation, that stark black and white doesnt happen often. No one here is sayingif a girl gives you the come on then says no you should carry on regardless. Thats not the issue. We all agree no is no end of.

But at which point is it first ok for a guy to physically touch a women?- nothing too intimate as such I just mean and arm round the shoulder, a hand on a thigh whatever- when is that appropriate? Answer- when she has given consent. How do you know you have consent?

There's the problem if your a guyt expected to make that first move- how do you know the firsts time that its ok now to try?
As a guy you these days not only run the risk of being accused of inappropriate sexual behaviour if you get that wrong, but just as a human being you are putting yourself out there at the risk of rejection, humilation, making a fool of yourself, or maybe ruining an otherwise potentially good friendship ect. There is a lot on that moment and picking it.

And we have very little to go on- never in my life has a woman ever said plainly, "yeah as of now you have my permission to be physically intimate with me" it just doesn't happen.

What you are left with to fall back on is trying to guess what the women actually means among the double talk hints and possibilities of conversation, try to read the body language, again based largely on previous experience. And if you have no or little previous experience, or are just young, what are you relying on to guide you? What you learn from wider society- media ect which is what that article was on about because what guys learn there is give it a go, if she resists, try again till she doesn't its all part of their game. }}}}

what on earth was dating invented for? jeez! dating was invented so that people could negotiate shagging, when shagging will or will not occur. dating allows people to put a toe in before they put the boot in. for fucks sake if in doubt, ask.

[Pettytyrant101]

if a woman is drunk don't shag her. end of story. its common sense.- Figg

{{If human shad stuck to that rule is doubtful we would all still be here. I know I was conceived whilst my parents were drunk after a New Years party.
And you cant tell me you've never had sex drunk- you're from the North!!}}}


for fucks sake if in doubt, ask.- Figg

{{As I pointed out in my first true life example, I tried that once when I was young and she laughed in my face. When is the moment anyway to ask outright?}}}

[halfwise]

A few women are lay-it-all-out-on-the-table types; most are not.  They in fact require coded messaging.

But we're not even talking about getting to the point of outright rape: the more common problem is unwanted touching or kissing.  That's what the article was mainly about.  I think it's better to not even color the conversation with rape.

[Mrs Figg]

Just to re-iterate what Dave and Petty have said: nonverbal cues are NOT something teenage boys can read, and they have no place to learn the skill.  Women think they are being obvious, they are NOT.

We can all recite detailed stories of being confused as to what the signals were, but many are person specific.  Here's a couple common trip points though (one I've already listed):

- women tend to look deep into the eyes of someone they feel comfortable with while talking.  To a young man who is already being pulled by the hormones, this is pure seduction.
- women will give warm hugs to people they approve of, men generally only want to hug those they are attracted to.  The social graces do mandate hugs in many situations and men eventually figure it out, but teenagers are largely lacking (and totally confused by) social graces.

As Dave said, some men instinctively get it.  Many more don't.  I'm reminded of something I read about fruit flies: they actually have elaborate courtship rituals.  But some hapless fruit flies don't glom onto these random moves; nothing physically wrong with them, they just don't get it.  It's a small percentage, but they never mate.

The percentage of men who just don't get it and have to learn the correct non-verbal cues and responses by slow trial and error (because there IS no guidance) is well above 50%.  Many married men I know confess they still have no clue, they just happened to hit on the magical combination to start things off right.  

But to be fair, the percentage of women who seem to understand that men just don't get it (not selfish, not arrogant, not mean, not thoughtless: just clueless) is even smaller....

Anyway, when information is lacking, any source will do. Think about it: we never get to watch people seduce each other for real, the only examples are on screen.  

The examples in books may be closer to reality but are nearly useless, believe me.  The most detailed descriptions of non-verbal cues are in romance novels (which every teenage boy flips through furtively in the dimestore), and a shocking percentage of these are along the Han Solo lines, but much, much worse.  A very common story line is she is strangely drawn to him but can't stand him because of his arrogance.  This continues up to the point where he basically rapes her, at which point she decides maybe he's not so bad.  And these are written by WOMEN.

this is all well and good but what makes you think girls are experts and boys are not? all young people have to negotiate a minefield, and for girls the stakes are much much higher. if a girl gets it wrong she can end up in a very bad place, or pregnant, or with a bad name, so girls have to walk a tightrope, we do after all have hormones too. we also have to read non verbal signals which is very difficult when you are not allowed by societies rules to 'make the first move' or at least we didn't when I was a girl, things may have changed, so go figure if you aren't allowed to initiate anything and have to wait for the male to start otherwise you are labelled a tart. women have to wait to be asked out on a date, we have to wait to be asked to marry, we have to wait to be propositioned, we have to wait for the first move, so we have these non verbal clues that you thickies need to pick up pronto or its going to go tits up.