Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ For me the main issue with Islam is two-fold- the use of it to solely political ends which began in earnest in Saudi Arabia and deliberate, for political reasons, created the doctrine of thought and interpretation of Islam that would go on to inspire the later groups, culminating in ISIS.
And secondly the lack of a Reformation or New Testament equivalent in Islam.
No matter how you look at the NT, from a Christian or atheist perspective its clear a large part of what it does is to replace out of date rules and laws that dont work well any more in the modern world- chief among them a lot of the food laws and sacrifice (which in cities was a bit unpopular with the neighbours).
This set a precedent in Christianity which let it adopt different approaches to different eras and to evolve if not with the times then at least no more than a century or so behind them.
Islam lacks this flexibility because it never got reformed in the same way and its more homogeneous than Christianity as it never splintered into as many different churches all living side by side. And there is no separation between state and religion making Islam a political movement as much as any other sort.
So the solution for me has to come from within Islam itself, is religious leaders need to reshape it for the modern age with their own Reformation (this should not be as hard as it might seem as the majority of Muslims who live abroad in other countries already live much this way with no problem living side by side or having friends of different religions or none, and this is historically the Muslim way).
As until these underlying issues with Islamic religion are solved groups like ISIS can make use of it for their own ideological and political ends. }}

[Mrs Figg]

As it stands I am pretty ignorant about the religion itself, but it strikes me that its not compatible with 21st century democracy. it needs to reform or go more and more extreme. Britain has had a LOT of immigration and conquest over the centuries and most of it has been bloody and violent, Romans, Vikings, French, Saxons etc etc, but later down the line the two cultures, the invader and the host has always given each other something which has made us who we are today, language, culture, laws and even DNA, and of course in Southern Spain there were many artistic and cultural gains from the Muslim 'invadors' which correct me if I am wrong but was a very cultured and moderate Islam. But I don't see that mutual thing going on today with modern Islam, I don't see how it enriches our society, to me, and I may be wrong, it looks like a degradation of our society not an enrichment. You only have to look at the women thing, ok, elephant in the room, women are treated like its 1217, not 2017. how is that enriching us? how are burkahs and shrouded females going to turn into something that in 300 years time people will say, ooh yeah that was a golden age of British culture. somehow I don't think so, and maybe just maybe, cue even bigger elephant in room, its the fact that most Muslim immigrants are coming from poor and culturally conservative areas like Bangladesh, rather than educated metropolitan India? as I said just asking questions out loud.

[Eldorion]

Islam lacks this flexibility because it never got reformed in the same way and its more homogeneous than Christianity as it never splintered into as many different churches all living side by side. And there is no separation between state and religion making Islam a political movement as much as any other sort.

Er, there are many different branches of Islam. There's the two major strands - Sunni and Shia - as well as smaller ones like the Sufis, and various schools of thought and sub-denominations. And that's without getting into the unorthodox branches like the Ahmadiyya movement that aren't always recognized by mainstream Muslims.

So the solution for me has to come from within Islam itself, is religious leaders need to reshape it for the modern age with their own Reformation (this should not be as hard as it might seem as the majority of Muslims who live abroad in other countries already live much this way with no problem living side by side or having friends of different religions or none, and this is historically the Muslim way).

I think one of the challenges is that most schools of Islam do not recognize a central leader like the Popes and Patriarchs you find in many Christian denominations. That lack of a central authority arguably makes it easier for extremist variants to take root even when various religious scholars and leaders denounce it. On the other hand, there are plenty of examples in the history of Christianity and especially Catholicism where groups took issue with what the central authority said and went off on their own way (many of them even avoided being exterminated ).

[Eldorion]

As it stands I am pretty ignorant about the religion itself, but it strikes me that its not compatible with 21st century democracy.

Neither are Christianity and Judaism if you decide to emphasize literal interpretations of certain passages (plenty of which can be found in the New Testament as well as the Old). But most Christians and Jews today, and throughout history, have adapted their interpretation of their religion to fit the broader cultural context they live in. Though obviously this is a two-way street as religion can exert a strong influence on broader culture as well. Same thing with most Muslims.

There is certainly a problem with how women are treated in some Muslim-majority countries and in some immigrant communities. (I mean, there are problems with how women are treated in every society, but I think honor killings are at a higher level of seriousness.) I don't think there's anything to be gained from denying this. But I think that tarring the entire religion of Islam for it is unhelpful because there is so much variation in how people interpret and practice Islam, just as there is with other major religions. There are limits to how much explanatory power you can take solely from knowing someone's religion. I think your observation that many migrants are coming from impoverished and less "cosmopolitan" areas is a relevant one as that probably accentuates the "culture shock".

[halfwise]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/the-coincidences-mount-as-another-putin-critic-is-shot-dead-221243934.html

I was impressed by both the interviewer and interviewee - this is far better than what one would expect from Yahoo news. The interviewee is Moscow chief for the Washington Post, so it's not unexpected that he'd know what he was talking about. But the interviewer kept making comments and asking questions that showed she really knew Russia. I had to look her up - she's been doing finance reporting, but has a background in Russia and I hope this interview catapults her to more Russian reporting.

[Pettytyrant101]

Er, there are many different branches of Islam- Eldo

{{ Fewer than in Christianity, considerably fewer, and most Christians churches have by this point in time learned to at least tolerate each other- the differences in Islam are still currently an excuse to murder and rape each other.
You only have to look to the Shia/Sunni divide and the violence that goes with it hand in hand to see that its currently comparable to the protestant/catholic divide of decades, or even centuries ago in some cases. Islam seems that far behind in working out how to work in the modern era. }}}

[halfwise]

I tend more towards Eldo's nuanced view of Islam, and much of what we don't like about the religion should be laid at the feet of the tribal cultures rather than the religion.

I do agree that when Christianity was a the same age it was a time of crusades and witches, and protestant/catholic warfare.  But I wonder if it's just coincidence.  The religions developed very differently: Christianity was highly fragmented at the beginning, then consolidated (thanks to a single man) and later fragmented again (the strong initial fragmentation lends some support to the idea that there was no historical jesus); Islam was more monolithic at the beginning, then fragmented.  I think the impression we have that Christianity is more fragmented in modern times may come from deeper familiarity with it.  I'm pretty sure a muslim would have a hard time telling Baptists from Lutherans.  

From what I know of citified, affluent muslims, they wear the religion as lightly as most christians do.  The crazies come from the downtrodden (look at the Irish Troubles), and we happen to have more of that in the islamic world right now.  Perhaps because colonialism proceeded differently, but that's a PhD research thesis I'm nowhere near equipped to handle.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Hope you are safe and well Halfy and were nowhere near that drunken fuckwit that crashed his car into folk in the heart of New York. How bloody selfish are some people- it boggles my mind.}}

[halfwise]

NYC is a big place, no worries. What I want to know is, with two previous DWIs, how did he get behind the wheel of a car? Was he drunk at the time? We'll probably know by tomorrow.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Glad to hear you are well Halfy- heart goes out to those caught up in a pointless act.}}

[Bluebottle]

Terribly sad, and all best wishes to anyone hurt ofc. But why was this reported by the media in war type, like a terrorist attack. Why does a small, albeit tragic, car accident travel the news networks of the world?

The sensationalism and fervency the media treats tragedies with is really gauling at times

[halfwise]

He was high on a marijuana derivative. I think the media jumped on it because it was redolent of a terrorist attack, even if it was no such thing. But the number of Americans dying of obesity related causes is orders of magnitude higher than those from terrorist attacks; just not as sensational. Soft drinks are the real enemy...

[Bluebottle]

I Guess you could make the case that life is the enemy, as it is lethal in 100% of cases.

[halfwise]

We never get out alive!

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Nothing to say really about the events in Manchester save for feelings of heart wrenching sorrow and pain. Pointless, needless stupidity on a murderous scale. What fucked up ignorant animals we truly are as a species. }}}

[halfwise]

Going after a concert where you know there will be children is a whole new low, even for ISIS.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{That the thing the press will say its ISIS, ISIS will say its ISIS, but I bet when you get right down to it it wasn't. It will have been some lone individual with a home made device, either mentally ill equipped for the world, or indoctrinated by other means by people smarting than them who dont blow themselves up for the cause.
Its not really part of some planned mastermind global terrorist network- they just rely on getting enough of these people to do it for them on their own.

A massive upping in the funding for diagnoses of, and treatment of mental health as a serious issue would in my view go a long way to preventing many of these sort of terrorist attacks happening, by addressing the underlying issues the killers suffer from before those mental vulnerabilities in them can be exploited by groups like ISIS.}}

[halfwise]

they are saying ISIS because ISIS claimed it; though that doesn't make it so. However, a suicide vest takes more sophistication than the mentally unstable can usually muster. We'll have to wait and see what forensics comes up with, if anything.

[azriel]

This horror has been on my mind all day. They were just children ! young people. Kids, kids that wont go to school & tell their mates about the fun they had last night, kids that wont see this years summer holiday. Those poor, poor mums & dads Its sickening & that's exactly what you do to get attention is to do the one thing that gets you noticed & everyone disgusted. This must have affected Ariana Grande. She's a young girl too. Never did she think a bomb would go off at one of her gigs. This will play on her mind for the rest of her life no doubt. Yes Petty, humans are the worst thing on this planet. Our taste for destruction at any level is unstoppable.

[halfwise]

She cancelled her tour. Up to now the worst thing that happened in her life is she got caught licking a donut.

[azriel]

I heard that she cancelled. I would have carried on but, I'm older & I don't give into bullies. But saying that I would not want anything to happen to her.

[halfwise]

I don't think it was for safety so much as out of emotional shock. Though if she had defiantly announced a continuation it may well have attracted more bombers.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{So that'll be the Paris Agreement fatally wounded then- not like we need a planet to live on or anything! Thanks America! Your self-serving interests reach new lows }}

[halfwise]

Hey, don't blame the slim majority of Americans for one idiot!

But now we join Nicaragua and Syria. And the only reason Nicaragua isn't in is because they didn't feel the Paris accords went far enough.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Hey if you spend decades banging on to the rest of the world about how America is the greatest democracy in the world then you lot own him- you elected him President in the greatest democracy in the world! How could it be wrong its the greatest?! }}}