Re: script writing for the Hobbit...

by halfwise Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:26 am

Something about being dependent on being online as I work disturbs me, which is why I can never use google docs myself. Given how much time I spend on the internet when I should be working points out how irrational this is, I'm the first to admit.

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:56 am

bungobaggins wrote:Use Google docs. Backs up right to the cloud as you type.

Not sure why I just don't trust the cloud... I mean I'm not conspiracy theory crazy about it but I just don't like things I write or do floating out there so a hacker can get them... Its funny though normally I am religious about backing stuff up. Not sure why I didn't this time.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:58 am

pc's are here to help us and drive us to distraction in equal measure- right now I am trying to output renders for the awards (that should be up by now) but for some reason hitfilm keeps ctd at random moments during the process- and I cant work out whats causing it- starting to think I may have to reinstall the whole thing Evil or Very Mad

by Eldorion Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:09 am

Sorry to hear about the file corruption, Sin. Out of curiosity, how many pages is the full script?

by Bluebottle Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:25 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:pc's are here to help us and drive us to distraction in equal measure- right now I am trying to output renders for the awards (that should be up by now) but for some reason hitfilm keeps ctd at random moments during the process- and I cant work out whats causing it- starting to think I may have to reinstall the whole thing

Universe?! I told you to leave Petty alone. Mad

Figg must have been telling it the opposite thing.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:40 am

Its driving me mad- tried reinstalling it, same problem.
Thing is I can still work on stuff so long as I consistently save its a minor inconvenience- but its outputting the finished vid is the issue- that can take a while and so far at some random point every time its ctd before its finished Banghead

by halfwise Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:24 pm

Sinister71 wrote:
My writing partner asked me WHY i was doing this again and I explained I am doing this for my love of the work of Tolkien, my thoughts that the material can be made into a cohesive entertaining script without sacrificing the essence and story of the book just to make an adaptation. They haven't seen the movies of the Hobbit yet but promised me they would watch them to compare them to the source material. My fingers are crossed with all the irons I have in the fire right now

Clever trick there...sending them to the movies sets a pretty low bar. I have no doubts you can blow it away...

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:20 pm

Eldorion wrote:Sorry to hear about the file corruption, Sin. Out of curiosity, how many pages is the full script?

at last count just under 300 pages (for 2 films) but much is just descriptive stuff on how I want the scene. I think its gonna get longer but I've been told scripts aren't that long now days, and producers might not read it if its too long. I just know what I am writing is for roughly 4.5 to 5 hours of screen time. (I could probably write 100 page script of how descriptive I want to be but THAT would never get looked at LOL)

(edited to say) That does include a vague bit of DolGuldur and flash backs pertaining to it. I'm not interesting in making up a bunch of crap like Jackson did but still feel the need to show why Gandalf left them at the edge of Mirkwood. Without revealing anything leading into LOTR. That is one of my biggest complaints of Jackson's Hobbit. He gives away everything we know from LOTR AGAIN in the Hobbit films instead of letting the films develope over time and revealing things exactly where they need to be

by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:25 pm

Bluebottle wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:pc's are here to help us and drive us to distraction in equal measure- right now I am trying to output renders for the awards (that should be up by now) but for some reason hitfilm keeps ctd at random moments during the process- and I cant work out whats causing it- starting to think I may have to reinstall the whole thing

Universe?! I told you to leave Petty alone.

Figg must have been telling it the opposite thing.

hey! that's mean. Mad

by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:28 pm

Sinister71 wrote:
Eldorion wrote:Sorry to hear about the file corruption, Sin. Out of curiosity, how many pages is the full script?

at last count just under 300 pages (for 2 films) but much is just descriptive stuff on how I want the scene. I think its gonna get longer but I've been told scripts aren't that long now days, and producers might not read it if its too long. I just know what I am writing is for roughly 4.5 to 5 hours of screen time. (I could probably write 100 page script of how descriptive I want to be but THAT would never get looked at LOL)

(edited to say) That does include a vague bit of DolGuldur and flash backs pertaining to it. I'm not interesting in making up a bunch of crap like Jackson did but still feel the need to show why Gandalf left them at the edge of Mirkwood. Without revealing anything leading into LOTR. That is one of my biggest complaints of Jackson's Hobbit. He gives away everything we know from LOTR AGAIN in the Hobbit films instead of letting the films develope over time and revealing things exactly where they need to be

crikey that's a big project. 300 page is a ton of work. good work! Thumbs Up

I wish I was as dedicated.

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:29 pm

I guess losing roughly 3 pages out of almost 300 (298 and a half to be exact) isn't too bad but still. It sucked I had to try and remember all the stuff I used and go back into the books for the lost dialogue. I guess that's all part of the process i guess. I can say I want a finalized script that would only need minor changes if it went into production... None of the PJ crap where every day there was a rewrite. Slows things down too much IMHO

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:33 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:crikey that's a big project. 300 page is a ton of work. good work! I wish I was as dedicated.

well considering I am home on disability right now I got nothing but time. and my love for the source material really drives me onward.Just when I thought certain scenes were good enough I start thinking about scenes from the book and want to make them better on screen... And by better I do not mean better than the source material, I just mean a perfect representation of the source material. I would want what I do to be something the Tolkien society would say, " you know this American guy gets it" I want something that while being entertaining still has what Tolkien tried to do with it and LOTR at heart.. My wife says she wished I was this passionate about her LOL, but then she realizes I am LOL

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:47 pm

Well you could always buy her a set of pointy ears and get her to dress like an elf (with the added bonus you can reenact Deep Space Nines controversial holodeck program "I was a Vulcan Sex Slave" on days when you're bored of elves Very Happy

)

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:49 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well you could always buy her a set of pointy ears and get her to dress like an elf (with the added bonus you can reenact Deep Space Nines controversial holodeck program "I was a Vulcan Sex Slave" on days when you're bored of elves )

That I don't think would fly so well LMAO... i tried talking her into dressing up for Dragon-con and got shot down rather quickly Very Happy

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:58 pm

Well you don't try you never get! Very Happy

(Although problem if they go along with it is when they ask you to do the same for them- when she asks you to dress like Armitage's Thorin!!)

by Eldorion Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:45 pm

Sinister71 wrote:at last count just under 300 pages (for 2 films) but much is just descriptive stuff on how I want the scene. I think its gonna get longer but I've been told scripts aren't that long now days, and producers might not read it if its too long. I just know what I am writing is for roughly 4.5 to 5 hours of screen time. (I could probably write 100 page script of how descriptive I want to be but THAT would never get looked at LOL)

My understanding is that the rule of thumb for movie scripts is that one page is roughly equivalent to one minute of screen time, so it sounds like you're well on your way to your goal. Thumbs Up

And most blockbusters (which TH would kinda have to be for budgetary reasons) are longer now than they were 15-20 years ago, so 4.5-5 hours split over two films is hardly unreasonable.

(edited to say) That does include a vague bit of DolGuldur and flash backs pertaining to it. I'm not interesting in making up a bunch of crap like Jackson did but still feel the need to show why Gandalf left them at the edge of Mirkwood. Without revealing anything leading into LOTR. That is one of my biggest complaints of Jackson's Hobbit. He gives away everything we know from LOTR AGAIN in the Hobbit films instead of letting the films develope over time and revealing things exactly where they need to be

Personally I don't think that showing what Gandalf was up to (except maybe in brief flashback) is important. It certainly has very little to do with Tolkien's story of The Hobbit. The only role that Gandalf's mission plays is to separate him from the Company at a time of rising danger, playing exactly the same role that Gandalf's fall in Khazad-dum played in LOTR. Gandalf isn't the main character, though, so we don't have to follow him during this excursion and it's actually kinda distracting to the main story to do so. Putting Sauron in the film at all begs the question of why we're spending more time with some dragon rather than the architect of Middle-earth's doom, and it's a hard question to answer. I suspect that's why PJ beefed up Sauron's role in the events of that time so much.

That's my take on it, anyway. How you write the script is up to you of course. Smile

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:54 pm

I agree with Eldo on the Sauron thing. I think a few references carefully placed to the Necromancer -ideal places are where they crop up in the book- suffice.
From a writing point of view use Gandalf as Tolkien does- he is a mysterious wizard with an unknown agenda involved in a bigger picture you only get the briefest glimpses into. To I hope you kept the visual image of Gandalf in Bag End looking like a sorcerer with glowing smoke rings hovering above is head- because its one of the main images Tolkien uses to set up Gandalf as the unknown wizard whose motivations you never really are certain of.
Dont make PJ's mistake of playing him like everyone already knows everything about him as its kills the character as he should be in the story.

Gandalfs occasional remarks about the Necromancer are usually down played in the book- telling the dwarves they wouldn't stand a chance ect, almost with a slight levity to it- but a good actor could easily portray the deadly seriousness and genuine fear Gandalf feels beneath the masking levity. You dont need much more.

I am all for viewers putting the pieces together- give them clues don't give them spoilers. So that when they come to the story of LotR's all the pieces fall into place, but only then not in TH, its the wrong story for it.

by Eldorion Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:57 pm

The ironic thing is that Tolkien's non-appearing depiction of the Necromancer is a hundred times more effective than PJ's silhouette-in-an-eye-in-a-silhouette-in-an-eye-in-a-silhouette-in-an-eye-in-a... From my review of AUJ, because I'm lazy:

One might have expected the Necromancer to be the primary villain of this film instead, but his only appearance is as a silhouette who spooks Radagast. To be honest, the Necromancer actually has even less of a presence in the first film then he did in the book, which is the exact opposite of what I was expecting. See, in the book, everyone is clear that violence and monsters have been spreading throughout Middle-earth and that most of it is due to the Necromancer. Gandalf states that the Necromancer is a foe far beyond the dwarves’ strength — much worse than Smaug — in the first chapter of the book. Subsequently, the dwarves go to great lengths to avoid going anywhere near Dol Guldur.

In the films, the status quo at the beginning of the story is that Middle-earth is enjoying a “watchful peace”. This line is spoken by Elrond in the film, and is a term straight from the LOTR Appendices, where it applied to the period from Third Age 2063-2460. People who are familiar with the timeline may notice that this period ended 500 years before The Hobbit, and that numerous conflicts had occurred since then, including Smaug’s sacking of Erebor and the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Despite both of these conflicts being shown in the film via flashbacks, everyone (especially the White Council) treats Middle-earth as a peaceful land and the forces of evil as a mere distant memory. The idea of orcs attacking travelers is apparently unthinkable, and the eventual attack (glimpsed in one of the clips released online) shocks everyone. This is exactly the opposite of the book situation and doesn’t really make much sense even in the context of the film itself.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:04 pm

Seems spot on to me Eldo.

What Tolkien did with the Necromancer is like a (suitably) mini version of how he handles Sauron in LotR's- he sets up that there is a bad guy, then he makes it clear early on that he is to powerful for the heroes of the tale to handle, so they spend time avoiding him, so we the reader also keep him in the back of our minds, doing the work of the author for them to a degree by creating the presence- all Tolkien needs to do after that is throw in a few bits here and there to reinforce that sense. There is no reason the same technique cannot work in a good script.

by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:38 pm

I never found Sauron scary and I never found the Necromancer scary. specially the Necromancer in the Hobbit films. Mind you I never found the Black Riders in the films scary either, but I did in the books. The only scary dude was The Mouth of Sauron. now he was scary. scary.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:41 pm

PJ screwed it with Sauron too consistently showing us Mordor long before any character is anywhere near the bloody place, and constantly showing us a stupid big fiery eyeball on a tower- real subtle. Rolling Eyes

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:43 pm

well the character of the Necromancer is never referred to as Sauron, there are no real connections between the 2. Other than subtle visual hints if I were to ever write a LOTR script. All that is known in my script is Gandalf is dealing with the necromancer who is causing trouble in DolGuldur. He does tell Thorin that the necromancer is too powerful for him and his kin to handle, and tells him its best to keep focused on the task at hand. The mountain...There is no white council there is no battle, No Radagast arriving on bunny sleds. There is a small scene i wrote with a robed hooded figure wandering around inside DolGuldur speaking to other hooded robed figures in black. Using what will be translated into black speech asking if all the preparations are ready. And the hooded figures telling him that everything is running ahead of schedule. Pretty much Gandalf arrives at a vacant fortress with maybe 10 or 12 armed elves in tow. DolGuldur shows signs that someone was there but had fled in a hurry before he had gotten there. there is dialogue between the elves and Gandalf that it appears their enemy has fled,and that maybe he will reveal himself at a later time. Gandalf then says he must get back to his dwarfs and we cut back to what the dwarfs are doing. The whole Gandalf /DolGuldur stuff takes up no more than 15 minutes of time other than a small at most 5 minute scene of the Necromancer wandering around DolGudur looking like he might be a ghost or could be real, lots of fog and shadows. All very dark and creepy (at least in my mind) Again like I said with only visual hints if I were to ever write a LOTR script.

by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:45 pm

yeah the eyeball wasn't scary at all. I don't know how you would do it in a film without showing something though. scratch

In TH they really took away Gandalfs mystery by showing what he got up to. we really don't need to know that stuff.

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:47 pm

I have the whole DG thing written like death is hanging in the air,lots of fog and creepy things going on visually. I come from a different school of horror film style than PJ's splatter films I like horror that has suspense without all the gore but yet when the scene unfolds you jump out of your seat... thinking HOLY CRAP I didn't see that coming.... And in the end it really shows nothing about the Necromancer other than he is still there somewhere...his true identity is safe and Mordor is never mentioned. just lots of little vague things that later on will make sense in a new LOTR script

by Sinister71 Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:52 pm

by the way the necromancer isn't seen until Gandalf tells Thorin about it when he says he has to leave the company for a while.. Whether its a flash back or just a vision of the Necromancer to give a visual aid to the less imaginative.

Honestly the whole concept of DolGuldur in my script is anti-climatic The necromancer flees before them. and Gandalf just drops a subtle hint about not hearing the last of that one... leaves the viewer wanting something more of a vague character